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#25738 - 10/27/02 10:15 PM ahhh.. the great immigration debate continues..
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
Quote:
damaris: Actually u know when illegal immigrants buy stuff they pay tax and most of us dont get medicaid or welfare.
in response to that, yes. everyone pays the state mandated sales tax. also the government mandated sales tax. those are not the taxes i was reffering to. i'm talking about income tax. please don't try to convince anyone here that illegals pay income taxes. do you want to know why they don't? first of all, the employers don't tell the government that they are employing illegal immigrants because it's ILLEGAL. second of all, you need to be a citizen in order to have a social security number. you need that to put on your W-4 forms which you fill out and submit to the government. so, obiviuosly, anyone with a shred of common sense can understand why the illegals don't pay income taxes.
now, about the medicare and free public schooling. yes, i'm sorry to tell you that illegals can and usually do receive both of those services for free. why? i don't fucking know. if it was up to me.. we would have shut down our borders so long ago. we would be an isolationist nation. that is clearly the best way to go. but that's a whole new topic

Quote:
damaris: and illegal immigrants contribute over 100 billion dollars a year to America
oh really? i think, and i'm just guessing here, that when you say that illegal immigrants "conrtibute" what you really meant to say was "drain." now.. if we put that word in the sentence in place of contribute.. you have a true statement. let's try it once together shall we?
"illegal immigrants drain over 100 billion dollars a year" ahhh.. the great sound of truthfulness.. now.. doesn't everyone feel much better now that we got that little misprint all straightened out? i know i sure do!

fleshy
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"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#25739 - 10/27/02 10:28 PM Re: ahhh.. the great immigration debate continues..
jonconley Offline
UGN Super Poster

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 955
Loc: Merrill, IA, USA
I wanted to make a few points, and I am sick of the opinions and bullshit claims that don't have much backing. So DaMaRiS, here is some FACTS (that means they are proven truths) and they counter alot of the claims that you have made. Mainly illegals increas crime and costs, don't give money to us, cost US money, and also leech off many things which they shouldn't be able too. And the majority of americans polled, believe this too.

Illegal Immigrate Diversity Actually Decreases The Melting Pot Effect

Quote:

A leading researcher in this field is Dr. William Frey, a demographer at the University of Michigan. With statistical analysis, Frey shows that native-born Americans in very large numbers are moving away from parts of the country heavily impacted by immigration. If this process continues, Frey believes that our country will become “balkanized,” i.e., split up along racial, ethnic, cultural, and regional lines.
Most don't come to the "Land of the Free", they come to "The Land of the Free Money"
Quote:
Yet any questioning of our refugee policy brings protests that refugees are people who are “fleeing for their very lives.” In point of fact, however, most are simply people who wish to improve their economic circumstances in America, in many cases by latching on to our welfare system. This is the disturbing message of Don Barnett’s The Refugee Racket. A former resident of the Soviet Union who saw the operation of the system first-hand.
Not everyone against restriction is against immigration
Quote:

Actually, quite a number of immigrants are restrictionists themselves. The reason is not difficult to understand. One such immigrant is Yeh Ling-Ling, a native of Vietnam of Chinese descent. For many years, since coming to America, she has worked tirelessly for immigration control. Ling makes a powerful, well-reasoned case for less immigration, citing the harmful effects on too many newcomers on U.S. culture, the economy, and the environment. For the sake of foreign countries, she concludes, “the most compassionate way to help the world’s poor in the long run is to seriously restrict immigration, which would force developing countries to work to improve the livelihood of their own citizens.
Mexico wants Fox to lead them out of situation, but he would rather lead them out of the country

Quote:

Fox, who was sought out by Mexican citizens to bring reform to the country, including economic mobility, has yet to offer any solutions within his country. In the short time since he took office, the Mexican President's solution has been to "ship" his poorest citizens into America, the end result of which is an ever- increasing border security problem, increasing crime levels, rising poverty, poorer performing schools, more services offered at the expense of American citizens, and a diluted American culture. It is said that this is hardly the reform that the American people had in mind. Apparently, any reform is coming at America's expense, while the status quo continues to remain in Mexico.

Illegal Immigration has been linked in study after study to an increase in poverty, crime, taxes, environmental degradation, as well as multiculturalism and bilingualism. Not only is the U.S. seeing the negative effects of illegal immigration, but there is nothing to be gained from it, for, according to the Centers for Immigration Studies, a Washington think-tank, Illegal Immigration from Mexico has had the following impact:

* Almost two-thirds of adult Mexican immigrants have not completed high school, compared to fewer than one in ten natives. Mexican immigrants now account for 22 percent of all high school dropouts in the labor force.

* Though most natives are more skilled and thus do not face significant job competition from Mexican immigrants, this study (consistent with previous research) indicates that the more than 10 million natives who lack a high school degree do face significant job competition from Mexican immigrants.
Cheap Labor doesn't result in cheap anything else
Quote:

By increasing the supply of unskilled labor, Mexican immigration in the 1990s has reduced the wages of workers without a high school education by an estimated 5 percent. The workers affected are already the lowest-paid, comprising a large share of the working poor and those trying to move from welfare to work.

* This reduction in wages for the unskilled has likely reduced prices for consumers by only an estimated .08 to .2 percent in the 1990s. The impact is so small because unskilled labor accounts for only a tiny fraction of total economic output.

* Mexican immigration acts as a subsidy to businesses that employ unskilled workers, holding down labor costs while taxpayers pick up the costs of providing services to a much larger poor and low-income population.
Mexican immigrants usage of welfare over 1/4
Quote:

* Even after welfare reform, an estimated 34 percent of households headed by legal Mexican immigrants and 25 percent headed by illegal Mexican immigrants used at least one major welfare program, in contrast to 15 percent of native households. Mexican immigrants who have lived in the United States for more than 20 years, almost all of whom are legal residents, still have double the welfare use rate of natives.
Only 5% of population, but over 10% of population without health insurance, costs others money

Quote:

* Although they comprise 4.2 percent of the nation's total population, Mexican immigrants and their U.S.-born children (under 18) account for 10.2 percent of all persons in poverty and 12.5 percent of those without health insurance. Even among Mexican immigrant families that have lived in United States for more than 20 years, almost all of whom are legal residents, more than half live in or near poverty and one-third are uninsured.
Read this one hun. Average fiscal impact (means money earned towards benefiting our country in a year)
Quote:

Based on estimates developed by the National Academy of Sciences for immigrants by age and education at arrival, the lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a negative $55,200.
What most of american thinks about illegals
Quote:

The United States takes on most of the shortfalls, that illegal immigration causes; having to deal with the abuse of social services by non-citizens, the taking of citizens’ jobs and the lowering of their wages and sinking of the common lifestyles, overall threatening the quality of life in certain communities. With all the illegal immigrants, there are surplus workers which means less jobs and more competition with workers for the lower pay brought about by the extra workmen. Thus, the jobs that helps produce the middle class lifestyles are taken and the middle class decreases. Illegal aliens are using welfare, education and other state and federal social services, whose costs are increasing taxes for everyone (DeMott 28). Illegal immigrants do not pay taxes, so they not justified in using social services, such as welfare, health care, and other services. It is more likely for immigrants to use social services provided by the government than nonimmigrants (DiConsiglio 5). A "Where I Stand Poll" in 1994 said 94% of the U.S. believes all illegal immigrants shouldn’t receive welfare and government services and 73% said their children shouldn’t attend public schools (DeMott 30).
Effects that Illegal immigrants have in cities with high concentratin.
Quote:
The higher illegally immigrated cites on average have 30% longer commuting time, 40% more people living in poverty, 60% more high school dropouts, twice as many violent crimes, twice as many unemployed, more than twice the welfare dependency, and more than seven times as much crowded housing (Beck77). These statistics are astonishing and represent the essence of the impact of illegal immigration on America.
Amnesty doesn't solve
Quote:

The flow of illegals grew dramatically during the years of the amnesty to more than 800,000 a year, before dropping back down to "only" around 500,000 a year. Within 10 years of the last amnesty, every amnesty recipient had been replaced by a new illegal alien.
llegal immigration undermines legal immigration.
Quote:

There is a list of over 3 million eligible people waiting to be admitted as immigrants to our country; some of them have been on that list for seventeen years. Illegal immigration makes a mockery of those people's adherence to the rules and of our country's sovereignty.
Very few immigrants actually coming to escape harsh conditions and repression, and do not contribute.
Quote:

The government study (INS Report on the Legalized Alien Population, M-375, March 1992) found that out of the amnestied illegal alien population:

94 percent had migrated for economic reasons.
55 percent lived in California.
70 percent were from Mexico.
13 percent were from Central America.
74 percent had never been apprehended.
15 percent spoke English.
80 percent used public health services.
49 percent had no health insurance.
Illegal Immigrants Amnesty hurts Legal Immigration Image
Quote:

The amnesty of illegal aliens skews the educational and skill level of legal immigration downward. As the ex illegal aliens naturalize and become U.S. citizens, they are able to petition for their relatives to join them here as immigrants. Each one will be able to sponsor both his parents and his brothers and sisters as immigrants. Naturally, the profile and characteristics of the relatives will be similar to their sponsoring immigrant which, as we have seen above, will detract from the high-skills, high-wage economy we are aiming for in the 21st century.
Illegals usually send all the money back to their country will living off of US
Quote:

Amnesty has set a dangerous precedent. In May 1997, El Salvador's president, Armando Calderon Sol, and Nicaragua's president, Arnoldo Aleman, pressured U.S. President Bill Clinton during a goodwill tour to grant amnesty to the 300,000 Central American illegal aliens living the United States. Illegal aliens from those countries have been allowed to remain in the United States so long that their homelands have grown dependent on the estimated $1.5 billion a year they send home in remittances.
Illegals use children as anchor babies
Quote:
Each year, thousands of women enter the United States illegally to give birth, knowing that their child will thus have U.S. citizenship. Their children immediately qualify for a slew of federal, state, and local benefit programs. In addition, when the children turn 21, they can sponsor the immigration of other relatives, becoming “anchor babies” for an entire clan.
What anchor baby education costs US
Quote:

The Urban Institute estimates that the cost of educating illegal alien children in the nation’s seven states with the highest concentration of illegal aliens was $3.1 billion in 1993 (which, with the growth of their population to 1.3 million, would be more like $5 billion in 2000). This estimate does not take into account the additional costs of bilingual education or other special educational needs.
Illegals get free or cheaper education that Legals and Natives
Quote:

Illegal alien students constitute a significant population of the nation’s illegal immigrant population. According to the Urban Institute, an estimated 126,000 unauthorized aliens under age 21 were enrolled in college; about half of them (an estimated 64,000 persons) had been in the United States for at least 5 years.1 Though they are unauthorized, such students have been given an entitlement to free public primary and secondary education. However, these students, when attempting to continue studies at the university level, often find it difficult to attend college if required to pay the non-resident tuition that is charged to other foreign students.

In Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202 (1982), the Supreme Court ruled that states could not deny unauthorized alien children a free public education through high school. Some state college systems, in order to help illegal alien high school students go to college, have granted them “in-state” tuition rates, which are lower rates reserved for residents of the state. Nonresident tuition typically ranges from 2 to 3.5 times the in-state resident tuition rate.
Now when you reply, please use actual facts. I have tried to read your posts and I have heard your opinions, I want you to show us where your opinions are coming from. Obviously, I have backed up most of the peoples points here.

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#25740 - 10/28/02 04:32 AM Re: ahhh.. the great immigration debate continues..
black^Pimp Offline
UGN GFX Whore

Registered: 09/26/02
Posts: 624
Loc: Underground
actually you backed up all our opinions there, you really couldn't say it better in whole one post jon, greetz for that man. And if that girl damaris doesn't gets it this time than she's probably nuts or she just can't handle the fact that she is wrong and that there are facts against what she's saying. You better start looking the reality from a different angle damaris !!!

bp
_________________________
+^Born Intelligence

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#25741 - 10/28/02 05:10 AM Re: ahhh.. the great immigration debate continues..
Gremelin Offline

Community Owner
*****

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 7193
Loc: Portland, OR; USA
I have a few points myself... I've been working since I was 12 and paying taxes, yet i can't get on Oregon Health Plan because their full, I was just on them, but apparently because I'm not black or mexican and on wellfare i'm shoved to the back of the line... lets see, 8 years of paying taxes and being unemployeed this year i'm straight fucked.
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#25742 - 10/28/02 05:41 AM Re: ahhh.. the great immigration debate continues..
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
aww.. poor gizzy!
well.. when i'm rich.. i'll hire you to be my man whore. it pays well.. pretty good benefits too!

fleshy
_________________________
"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#25743 - 10/28/02 06:33 AM Re: ahhh.. the great immigration debate continues..
black^Pimp Offline
UGN GFX Whore

Registered: 09/26/02
Posts: 624
Loc: Underground
hey Giz why don't you marry a rich old lady then kill her while she's sleeping and this way the whole fortune is yours.

here ya go bro..

PROBLEM SOLVED lol.

see ya

bp
_________________________
+^Born Intelligence

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#25744 - 10/28/02 03:15 PM Re: ahhh.. the great immigration debate continues..
DaMaRiS Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/26/02
Posts: 55
Loc: New York City
aight look dont be all bitchy blackpimp cuz if u didnt realize ur username has the word black in it and i noe plenty of illegals that pay income tax and its called falsification and amnesty dont solve anhything and i cant believe no of u agree with me. u people are so stuck up! especially blackpimp who dont noe anything bout life and i am gonna slapo jonconely who does he think he is. Not all Mexicans are immigrants and i reallly didn't bother to read all of ur crap because u guys are bullshit. Look I was bron here and thanks to my parents it isn't free money. That is only a wronginterpretation of u guys. Many employers that arent lyk u guys hire illegal's because they pay less for them than for a legal resident and amnesty is very difficult but none of u know that and illegal are humans we come here for jobs not to take away ur money we practically avoid u guys so we can sedn money home so our country can be better and Cubans come here to be free from Castro so y'all are stupid ignorant bastards and bitches who dont noe what y'all are talkin about and i suggest u stop aight. Stop while ur behind!

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#25745 - 10/28/02 04:35 PM Re: ahhh.. the great immigration debate continues..
Curse Offline

Enforcement Admin

Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 533
Loc: San Andreas
Well, Damaris, you have a couple of valid points, Illegal Immigrants get hired because they will work for peanuts, and they send money home to their families in Mexico... But the rest seems to be bullshit. You have this preconception that people on this web board are all little nerds who sit in a dark room all day. I guarantee you that know "life" better then you. How many people do you know who were close to you that have died? How many times have you been in a true fight "to death or until the cops show up"? How many times have you been arrested? How many times have you had sex? How many jobs have you had? How much money do you make a week? When did you graduate high school? How many fiance's have you had? How many times have you been married? How many kids do you have?
Feel free to add any questions to that.

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#25746 - 10/28/02 04:39 PM Re: ahhh.. the great immigration debate continues..
black^Pimp Offline
UGN GFX Whore

Registered: 09/26/02
Posts: 624
Loc: Underground
hahahhha now you really made me laugh like crazy.
i do realize my nick contains the word black but do you really know what a nick means eh ??? btw i'm bitchy to those who deserve.. like you. And my nick is my own fucking bussiness ok.

hahaha blackpimp don't know anything about life eh ? hahaha.. first of all blackpimp is older then you, second he's not stupid as you are, third i don't go bullshiting everyone and making everyone nerve... and most of all blackpimp ain't a stupid knowless bitch like you ok.

i really don't know why am i wasting my time on you when you're too damn stupid to accept the reality.

bp
_________________________
+^Born Intelligence

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#25747 - 10/28/02 04:55 PM Re: ahhh.. the great immigration debate continues..
DaMaRiS Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/26/02
Posts: 55
Loc: New York City
actually Curse has a point i dont really know anything and i never had sex so wow u guys actually venture outinto the HUMAN world i thought everyone was lyk Wade in Kim Possible!

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#25748 - 10/28/02 06:43 PM Re: ahhh.. the great immigration debate continues..
Imperial Offline
Member

Registered: 03/07/02
Posts: 201
Loc: inside
hahaha this is a joke right?

come on, someone fess up....who created demaris..come on...take credit...this has to be a joke right? right?

I mean it looks like a joke, it talks like a joke...so who did it?

I mean seriously....no one's really that stupid are they?
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I can do anything

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#25749 - 10/28/02 06:48 PM Re: ahhh.. the great immigration debate continues..
BackSlash Offline
UGN's Resident Homo

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 599
Loc: TN
curse, her point about illegal immigrants working for peanuts is true, but thats one reason many true americans find themselves out of a job. they can't get hired even at minium wage because an illegal immigrant is working for half that pay.
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#25750 - 10/28/02 06:48 PM Re: ahhh.. the great immigration debate continues..
BackSlash Offline
UGN's Resident Homo

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 599
Loc: TN
curse, her point about illegal immigrants working for peanuts is true, but thats one reason many true americans find themselves out of a job. they can't get hired even at minium wage because an illegal immigrant is working for half that pay.
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"It's better to burn out, than to fade away."

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#25751 - 10/29/02 05:26 PM Re: ahhh.. the great immigration debate continues..
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
damaris: alright.. out of every post on this board you should have read jonconley's all the way through. those are actual facts. i think you are just afraid to read it because then you'd have to admit your ignaorance. i understand that you have strong feelings on this topic, being a minority and all. but as an american citizen, how can you stand behind illegal immigration? just because your parents/family members were illegal? that's not a good enough reason to stand on. i'm sorry, but it isn't. if you could maybe show how, with facts, that illegal immigration DOESN"T hurt this country.. then maybe we'd be more accepting of your viewpoint. but i know, no matter how hard you look, you will never find any statistics or evidence to support your argument.

again.. i can understand why you have such strong feelings about this, but honestly, i think you're too young to have formed such a strong opinion on your own. i'm guessing that it's your parents' viewpoints, and being that you are so young, you still accept what your parents say. (for the most part) but someday you will be older and wiser. someday you will have gained enough intellect to form your own, valid opinions.

fleshy
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"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#25752 - 10/29/02 08:34 PM Re: ahhh.. the great immigration debate continues..
ohfuk Offline
UGN Supporter

Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 274
alright damaris i agree you did make 2 good points but you miss the point illegal Immigrants do get hired because they work cheep. i know because in the summer i work next to them. this causes everyone else to get paid less and being laborers arnt really needed that much this doesnt reduce the cost of anything. ive also noticed that they do really shitty work and many of them are really lazy. i used to keep up with them when i was 13, you age. now i get so much more done then them yet they keep my pay down because it wouldnt make sence if a 16 year old white kid made more then a 25 year old jose.
you other point was that they send money home to their families in el savador and mexico. now that is deliberatly taking money out of the country. you said "we come here for jobs, not to take away your money". what the fuck do you think is happening when your parents or whoever sends money out of this country???your taking money out of the country you dumbass. how the fuck can you not see that? and you think working for shit ass pay doesnt hurt the rest of the country? jesus how can you be so damn stupid.

now if you wanted to make a valid argument you could point out the fact that the united states practically stole half of mexico a couple hundred years ago, texas up to like canida or some shit. we won a war, stole the land, and threw mexico a couple bucks to make it look ok. BUT YOUR TO FUCKING STUPID TO KNOW THAT.

people used to hate the irish because they used to flock over here mid 1800s during the "great potato famine". the same thing continues today. so id like to point out that this really isnt a racial thing as i know you asume damaris.

by your standards, ill be president one day. when that happens im gonna build a wall 50 ft high, 50 feet deep across the entire mexican boarder. there will be guards every 50 ft with sniper rifles and theyll be instructed to shoot anybody, first with paint balls, then with bullets. assuming they can get past the land mines, barbed wire, and attack dogs.

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