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#26124 - 08/26/02 07:39 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
dashocker Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 524
Loc: Cornfields everywhere...
i love tbg's point about good teachers. i have had several good ones in my life. the best was probably my 8th grade history teacher. she was so passionate about teaching and taught in a way i had never experienced before. but teachers are, for the most part, boring. They dont care enough about their topic. They go blah blah blah by the book. My observations have been teachers who think outside the proverbial box are the good ones. But now a days, you would be suprised at how much teachers are restricted by bureaucracy and bad principals. So it's not all their fault.
Impy, you had the best con post so far. I would be skeptical about plagarism if i was ur teacher But really, your point about things you forget once u get the job is very good. I also like the point about the dryers. I dont agree with the part about media picking your job. Sure some people are inspired by the cool things they see on TV. But did the media really pick that job for them? Say you see a story about a space shuttle and what not at a young age. You decide you'd like to fly that thing too. Not because of how the media portrayed the story, or the pictures that were shown, but because the idea of flying to space appeals to you in general. The media has nothing to do with that. I know thats some what cryptic, but try to bear with it. I also dont agree that history is irrelevent. Would you be living in the USA if History was irrelevent? No, you would be living in some English colony. Did our founders sit back and go: "In the past, we were treated like this, it is irrelevent." No. They stood up for their rights. They were tired of it. Some what of a hokey analogy but works for me. Wow, what a thought provoking UGN Security discussion!

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#26125 - 08/26/02 07:59 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
Cold Sunn Offline
UGN GFX Whore

Registered: 03/03/02
Posts: 574
Loc: us
ok, I clicked an aim link and it stole this window, that bitch.

Imp, seriously sometime i wanna have a conversation with you sometime. Ideas and stuff, if you don't mind.

When did the future switch from being a promise to a threat?

I would post more...
but, again, the aim thing, and I am tired.

unreal, please share.

When I am out of highschool, I am passing out fliers saying why school was or wasn't a waste of time and what you should do. Let the cat out of the bag, the dog out of the box, the sheep out of the...oven.

So far, anything I could learn from in history was taught long before i started hating school and thinking it was useless. Give me hope! (tbg, i think i could get on if I go out of school forever, now at least. Not positive though, but who is?)

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#26126 - 08/26/02 07:59 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
Moffesto Offline
UGN Supporter

Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 730
Loc: Kuntucky
im to lazy to read everyones replys but i was told school wasnt much on learning after grade school, after that it was about remembering, organazation skills, social skills and real life things.... not just learning. I thought it was a interesting opinion but i dunno yet, to young.
_________________________
2 people can keep a secret as long as one is dead

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#26127 - 08/26/02 08:31 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
Cold Sunn Offline
UGN GFX Whore

Registered: 03/03/02
Posts: 574
Loc: us
Dashocker, i am going to comment on your comment on History.

If me and Impy agree on it, (don't we?) then this is what he is saying. The past is important that it happened, but you cannot change it. Flash back to when we are about to break away from britain. We cannot change how we were treated, but we can change how we will be treated. See, the future is what you have to take control of. Yes, i am glad it happened. Everything that has happened before me i do not want to change, because this is my life now. Even the bad things, without them my life would be different and I don't want to be someone else.

So here is the thing, studying the past will not change it, will not make it better, or keep it from changing. All it will do is tell you how things used to be, and yes like tbg said maybe give you models for success. It was important that it happen, but now it is no longer important.

Whatever I do with my life, i want to be forgotten when I am dead. When you are alive, people can remember you and say, "hey he could help" or something. When you are dead, you can't change the future. (unless you believe in that ghost shit but leaving that out in my point) I want people to realize that how I was isn't important. i know we can't study the future the way we can the past, but if we focused on improving it, then i think we could make some real improvements.

I had a cool 8th grade history teacher. I hated almost all of that class, but occaisionally he would tell us about something interesting that isn't in the curriculum (ok i still don't know how that is spelled). He was cool, but i still hated the rest of it.

Also, I disagree with Impy on the media influencing your career, but not completely. I want to be either a web designer, or a writer, something in that area. I think that I got influenced by the media some, but not much. So far, nothing i have learned in highschool would help me. To be a writer, having good grammar, etc, English class, yeah maybe. But i don't believe in having rules on creation, i won't get too far into it but i think they had a few things in HISTORY where the people that didn't follow the "rules" in art, and all that, creation.

I wanna say that I have really liked this last half of the topic. There has been some good conversation, and i hope it doesn't end soon, or turn to silliness like the others.

And, i am sorry for posting alot. Or big posts. hopefully it is interesting.

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#26128 - 08/26/02 09:35 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
thebluegiant Offline
Member

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 109
impy: You say they offer us a broad base of knowledge and then expect us to pick a career. OK.
What else do you propose? Having a specific field of interest picked at birth? I doubt that's what you meant so please, enlighten me.
What type of system (or lack thereof) do you propose that would be better?

Yeah, the media influences peoples opinions on things and maybe ever their interests. So can books, games, articles, shit--anything can, and does. What's your point?

And on history--you don't study it to change the past, you study it to improve the future.

sunn: you want to be forgotten when you die? Bah, I want to be remembered. Or actually, not me, but something I did, some idea I had. Heh, a romantic idea, isn't it?

Focusing more on the future, yeah, it'd help. But only if we remember what mistakes were made to get there in the first place. (and when I talk about remembering history, it's not dealing with nitpicking and blaming people for what happened, that's useless. It's merely remembering it happened.) IMO, a knowledge of the past is an extremely valuable resource that can help improve the future.
_________________________
"There is no end. There is no beginning. There is only the infinite passion of life."
--Fellini

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#26129 - 08/27/02 03:40 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
Cold Sunn Offline
UGN GFX Whore

Registered: 03/03/02
Posts: 574
Loc: us
One system I thought would work, is to have it so you start studying only what you are interested in, starting at Middle school. That way, by the time you know what you want to do as your career, you should have studied it. I mean, if you choose a career that you would enjoy doing, because it interests you, then you would be set, and school would not be so lame.

Right now, what I want to do is get out of school and just get a job instead. From the past few days, i have lost almost all hope in the idea that I am learning anything useful. The teacher is talking about how glaciers formed the great lakes, but in my head I am thinking, "Yes, maybe, but i don't care." One thing my friend pointed out, was that we don't know that what they teach us really happened. Yeah, there may be evidence but I have no proof it exists, not saying there is a reason to believe they are lying to us, but I don't know it happened. Even if I was there, I wouldn't know for sure that it was true, because it took so long. We never really know anything, and really don't like being taught what we don't know.

I don't know any adults (except those that use it every day or experienced it) that remember more about history about what we have learned in school. What I learned back in elementary school, back before i started hating it.

I don't mean there aren't any, but tbg could you give me some examples of mistakes in history we should remember?

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#26130 - 08/27/02 04:20 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
thebluegiant Offline
Member

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 109
Middle school? Man, you can't tell me that people know what they want to do as early as that. Hell, my main interests have shiften in the last year and probably will again.

The not knowing what really happened thing.
You think you live in the matrix now? Because that's the way it sounds.

I know much more history than what we learned in school, in fact, most of it was learned out. I'm not an adult, but close enough.

An example?
Vietnam.
_________________________
"There is no end. There is no beginning. There is only the infinite passion of life."
--Fellini

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#26131 - 08/27/02 04:38 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
Imperial Offline
Member

Registered: 03/07/02
Posts: 201
Loc: inside
Blue you really attacked it, I lub j00

But I see some of my points didn't come accross how I wanted them to, so here goes...no promises

Quote:
Originally posted by thebluegiant:
impy: You say they offer us a broad base of knowledge and then expect us to pick a career. OK.
What else do you propose? Having a specific field of interest picked at birth? I doubt that's what you meant so please, enlighten me.
What type of system (or lack thereof) do you propose that would be better?


I assume you have some idea of how school and such works in Europe, now most of it I don't agree with but they do like this idea that they have. Sunn hit it righ on the head, and that idea is that you begin to learn what interests you. If you're really intrested in math or language, you cut back on science or something and take more of those classes. And then on top of that you still take those classes you cut back on, but the parts that go with your field of interest.

Yeah, the media influences peoples opinions on things and maybe ever their interests. So can books, games, articles, shit--anything can, and does. What's your point?

What do those things like the media do? Influence you, you said it. Now, if you influence enough people what have you just affected? Society. Now, if society portrays the idea of a lot of money, a big house, a foreign car, and a career in New York since birth...then what do you think will appeal to you.

My first few days of science class we were asked to draw a picture of a successful person...it was just something to ease us into the year. Now, out of a class of 30+ 97% of the people drew people with big houses, a family, and a big corperate job.

Yes, people do end up as carpenters and bakers and candle stick makers. But if they have had the big corperate america job shoved into their heads their entire lives, truth is they're probably in those jobs not by choice. And then every day they aspire to be something else.

And on history--you don't study it to change the past, you study it to improve the future.

My first question is just a question, I don't have a side on it. But if you'd ever heard of the holocaust or any war...if no one had ever heard of them...do you think the idea would still be there?

About the colonies, fuck that. That's their past NOT OURS. Why should be care about what a bunch of dead people did? It doesn't really matter now does it? They did it, we have out country...now it's our time...and we should do our thing. Not spend our time learning about them and living in their shadows.

Here's an idea:
Erase the past and make your own.

Also, yes your idea of being remembered is very romantic. Now lets face the facts, you won't be. Probably none of us will, and that scares people. That past drives us to do all sorts of silly things, like put your people into slavery in the name of making yourself famous (i.e. the Egyptions)

The far more important memories for you should be those little times of perfection. A kiss, a song that reminds you of something coming on right as you think of that something, an explosion, a plane crash, something that will only be perfect for an instant..and never again

Focusing more on the future, yeah, it'd help. But only if we remember what mistakes were made to get there in the first place. (and when I talk about remembering history, it's not dealing with nitpicking and blaming people for what happened, that's useless. It's merely remembering it happened.) IMO, a knowledge of the past is an extremely valuable resource that can help improve the future.

What about learning from your own mistakes, instead of having the answers handed to you...this topic is about learning after all
_________________________
I am the Lizard King
I can do anything

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#26132 - 08/27/02 04:47 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
Imperial Offline
Member

Registered: 03/07/02
Posts: 201
Loc: inside
Quote:
Originally posted by thebluegiant:
Middle school? Man, you can't tell me that people know what they want to do as early as that. Hell, my main interests have shiften in the last year and probably will again.

The not knowing what really happened thing.
You think you live in the matrix now? Because that's the way it sounds.


The Matrix? That's a bit extreme....I find that good rule of thumb is to belive nothing you hear and half of what you see. Explain just how we know that these things happened? Because a bunch of people said so? Now I'm sure you can already see what's coming, if I get a huge number of people together and swear that something happened that didn't...how do you know that it's untrue?

I know much more history than what we learned in school, in fact, most of it was learned out. I'm not an adult, but close enough.

An example?
Vietnam.


Now that's interesting, you actually persue your interests outside of school...maybe because what you're really interested in isn't taught or it doesn't go in-depth enough for you...so what if you did pick classes dependant on interest...has your interest in history changed?

_________________________
I am the Lizard King
I can do anything

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#26133 - 08/27/02 05:33 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
dashocker Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 524
Loc: Cornfields everywhere...
ColdSunn, tbg's explanation about history is what i was trying to point out. And I belive IM the one who said "models for succes", yeah so anyway.
Impy, at first you said history was irrelevent, but now you just say 'fuck it.' What kind of attitude is that? lol, i mean really. Who gives a shit how your country was made? How many people died for it? I don't normally make one of these stupid ungrateful bastard speeches, but being irrelevent is one thing, saying you dont even care is another. You get what Im saying?

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#26134 - 08/27/02 08:20 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
BackSlash Offline
UGN's Resident Homo

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 599
Loc: TN
i don't feel like reading all of the above, so forgive me if i repeat whats already been said... i, along with the majority of you, believe that a large portion of school is a waste. geography, spanish, art, etc. however, we shouldn't overlook the important parts of school. for instance, we will use math, english, and a lil bit of science. you don't have to agree with me there, but it is true. everytime you get in an airplane you are applying Bernoulli's principle in order to stay in the air, and of course math is critical even if you end up running a cash register at mcD's. as for the rest of school, despite its pointlessness, there is a underlying point to it. this point is learning how to learn. it's a fact that we will have to deal with and do many things in life that we don't agree with, thus these classes such as spanish help to prepare us for that. they also help teach us how to learn, they make us use our minds in ways we might not if we didn't have to take the class. school in general also helps to form our social skills and abilities. if it were up to me i would still drop all of these pointless classes due to the fact that i don't believe the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, however, if you are just looking for a reason behind school...perhaps thats it
_________________________
"It's better to burn out, than to fade away."

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#26135 - 08/27/02 08:34 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
Cold Sunn Offline
UGN GFX Whore

Registered: 03/03/02
Posts: 574
Loc: us
dashocker, yeah I think you probably said it first, i would confirm it but scrolling up would take a whole like 2 seconds.

tbg, lol yeah see you learned it outside of school, and you were interested. I agree with Impy. If you are interested in it, then learn it. You obviously are, but I am not. So we would not be taking the same classes.

In middle school, I knew I was interested in web design. Writing? no. I had no idea i wanted to be a writer, at all. But school has not affected me in any noticeable way with writing. I didn't know I wanted to do it as a career, but i definately would have taken classes on it. What I have learned in the area, was out of school. So far, school hasn't helped me at all in learning what I want to learn-web design.

The matrix? nah, i don't think this is the matrix. But I do think that since there is an infinate amount of situations where everything we believe is just a lie. And since there is only one situation that is the one we live in, it sounds like it is outnumbered. Not saying I believe it, just saying. Aren't there people that believe the holocaust didn't happen? And they aren't even the majority.

Vietnam. Weren't people protesting it then? What's the phrase, "Hindsight is always 20/20."?

Again, I agree with Impy. I think it is our own history that is most important. When you swat a kid's hand down from the cookie jar, 2 things could happen. 1) he won't do it again unless he asks first (or whatever he has to do without getting swat) because he remembers getting hurt. or, 2) He will do it again and try not to get caught. If his friends tell him he isn't allowed, he will just think his situation is different. So,in either situation it was his own past he learned from, or still didn't. This may be a bad example, but I think it is a good one.

I like to remember what I want, things like the wtc collapsing aren't important to me. I know, it was bad that it happened, but it did happen and there is no changing it. Things I wouldn't want to change, things I enjoyed, things i will use later, those things I like remembering. There are rules and things I need to remember, but the important ones are still the ones I enjoyed most.

Bah, I can't remember the exact quote, but I loved it...

Those people are dead and gone, this is our time now.
-Fight club

..talking about how the world belongs to us now, not them. About how history is already gone, and some other stuff.

Let's pretend one day, I do something that is so patriotic later on, like leading the rebels to war against the evil union, (just make up some story where later on, the rebels are right.) I still wouldn't want to be remembered. I would want people to think about how their world is then. We have so many problems in our world now, and who is looking to the past for answers? I don't know anyone who is, but if they are they aren't finding one apparently. Again, not that there aren't any answers, but if there are someone needs to find them.

I think saying "fuck it" was just the "I don't like it, and I don't care" way of saying it is irrevelent.

Could some people post some systems they think would be better than the one we have? Or say it should stay the same.

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#26136 - 08/27/02 08:37 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
thebluegiant Offline
Member

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 109
Quote:
What do those things like the media do? Influence you, you said it.
Yeah, and I also said that just about everything else out there can be, and is, an influence. Is the media the biggest influence? Definitely.
Is society been so thoroughly indoctrined with the idea of what 'happiness' and 'success' are to every even think that it can be something different entirely? Yes.

Quote:
My first question is just a question, I don't have a side on it. But if you'd ever heard of the holocaust or any war...if no one had ever heard of them...do you think the idea would still be there?
Of course; and to take it one step further, I think that the world would be just as apathetic about it in the beginning as they were with Hitler. Of course, now we (should) know to pay attention to these fuckers when they develop.

Quote:
The far more important memories for you should be those little times of perfection. A kiss, a song that reminds you of something coming on right as you think of that something, an explosion, a plane crash, something that will only be perfect for an instant..and never again
The key words there are 'for you.' Yes, those are unquestionably the moments to treasure, the moments that 'matter' and hopefully the person shared with will remember them just as vividly.
As far as others remembering, it's a romantic idea and one I don't put much stock in, and that's about it, seems we're agreed on that.

Quote:
What about learning from your own mistakes, instead of having the answers handed to you...this topic is about learning after all
Nothing wrong with learning from others mistakes as well, is there?

Quote:
The Matrix? That's a bit extreme....I find that good rule of thumb is to belive nothing you hear and half of what you see. Explain just how we know that these things happened? Because a bunch of people said so? Now I'm sure you can already see what's coming, if I get a huge number of people together and swear that something happened that didn't...how do you know that it's untrue?
Of course it's a hyperbole, that was the point. Sunn seemed to be taking it there when he said that we never really know anything. Of course it's true, but it's impractical to worry about on a large scale simply because most often there's not a damn thing you can do to prove/learn otherwise.

Quote:
Now that's interesting, you actually persue your interests outside of school...maybe because what you're really interested in isn't taught or it doesn't go in-depth enough for you...so what if you did pick classes dependant on interest...has your interest in history changed?
Of course what I'm interested in isn't taught in-depth in school. The majority of the school system is shit, any disagreement on that?
I pick classes dependent of interest . . . that doesn't mean that they'll be taught any better does it? There's something else wrong, but my mind's blanking on how to express it. All shall be explained eventually.

Now, my idea for the school system:
Elasticity.
The system is designed to educate 'the masses' Now, if you want to move past the masses and learn something new, harder, or more interesting most often the administration won't know what to do, will feel threatened and will do everything within your power to shut you down. At me school at least, that's how it is. By now they know that I, adn my parents, don't back down and so for the most part I get my way, but still, it's a problem.
It should be made much easier for students that wished to advance their own learning rather than having to move at the schools set pace and curriculum.

Oh yeah, and I lub j00 too.
_________________________
"There is no end. There is no beginning. There is only the infinite passion of life."
--Fellini

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#26137 - 08/27/02 08:41 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
thebluegiant Offline
Member

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 109
Bah, you posted that while I was writing the above.
To comment on Vietnam:
The US learned several things from that war.
You probably know them, so I won't explain. But shortly: know nothing about terrain, people.
Quagmire. Others problems. Nation Building. Beuracracy.

Yes, hindsight is always 20/20. That's when we see the above mistakes and try not to get stuck in that situation again.

And Impy: When the hell we gonna play Battle Toads again?
_________________________
"There is no end. There is no beginning. There is only the infinite passion of life."
--Fellini

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#26138 - 08/27/02 08:52 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
Cold Sunn Offline
UGN GFX Whore

Registered: 03/03/02
Posts: 574
Loc: us
Backslash, I have a few disagreements.

In you example of the airplane, it isn't us using it. In fact, most people don't know what principle, but most people know what creates lift. If they didn't, the plane would still fly. It is the pilots that need to know things relevant to flying, and of course they wanna be pilots...wait a minute...they could learn about flying at a flying school! It all makes sense! oh they do that already.

I do think we should have to excercise our minds, but I think there are better ways of doing it than school. I think that the space between (i hate that song so much) between the stupid and smart people will increase as time goes on, because of things that make tasks easier. Things like automating so much of the cash register, math will be less and less important. Then, one day, most people will never use it. Just the ones that need it for scientific study and whatnot.

I think about preparing for situations we don't want to be in, well I don't think I should be prepared for them. i don't think they should even happen. Later on in life, when i am not required by law to go to whatever place I am going to, if someone tells me, "You have to do this or you are fired" and i don't want to do it, then too bad.

I'm not married to this chickenshit job. Getting fired would be the best thing that ever happened to us. Then we would stop treading water and do something with our lives.
Again, not accurate but I don't want to get the book. (fight club)

If I just stop going to school, my parents get in trouble. That is crap to me, since it wouldn't be their fault. When I can take the blame for things I do, when they will start treating me like an adult or at least like a person, then I will have the freedom to say "I don't need this" and just quit. Like i said, My life, I should decide how I live it. that is the main reason i hate school.

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