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#28615 - 06/23/02 11:46 AM Re: How stuff WILL work
SilentRage Offline
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Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 1273
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one theory of time that I've always like is that you can't go back into the past and change it - cause you'd actually be carrying out what has already been done.

I.E. You go back into the past to prevent Bill Clinton from reaching the presidency, but then you find out - Bill was in the presidency BECAUSE you had already, in the past, attempted to stop him. You had instead, CAUSED it inadvertently.

Under that theory there is nothing you can do to change the past - cause you've already tried. heh. I wonder if this is a little too deep for some of you.
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#28616 - 06/23/02 01:36 PM Re: How stuff WILL work
olosoft Offline
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Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 143
Loc: .
like in time machine...

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#28617 - 06/23/02 02:37 PM Re: How stuff WILL work
SilentRage Offline
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Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 1273
Loc: OH, USA
never seen it actually. I read the science fiction series dragon riders of pern which used that concept.
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#28618 - 06/23/02 03:45 PM Re: How stuff WILL work
bor Offline
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Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 95
Loc: Tampa, Florida
One theory about time travel to the past is that it wouldn't effect this specific dimension, but because just traveling to the past to bein with would alter SOMETHING, it would simply create an alternate dimension for everything that altered.
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#28619 - 06/23/02 07:59 PM Re: How stuff WILL work
quicksilver Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 30
If it turns out that time travel is ever realy possible, i think the theory SR pointed out would be the most correct. However, I don't really think time travel is possible, perhaps travel to alternate dimensions yes, but not time travel. Only reason I don't think it is possible, becuase anytime you start to think about it, there are a million situations that cuase endless logic loops.

For instance, the old question of: "What would happen if you kill your father or mother before they concieve you"
I mean, if you kill them, you can never be born, making it impossible for you to kill them, or perhaps you never were born becuase sometime in the future you did kill your parents, but then how are you here now?

If someone put that situation out before, im sorry, I really didn't feel like reading all the posts.

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#28620 - 06/24/02 08:15 AM Re: How stuff WILL work
SilentRage Offline
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Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 1273
Loc: OH, USA
well, under my favorite theory, all attempts to kill your father must have failed cause you ARE alive. heh

Under secular theory, I don't believe time travel is possible - nor are there multiple dimensions.

However, under theistic theory, it may be possible that God can revert the universe to an earlier state - or a future state. Since he knews the past and the future and is all-powerful - than sure, he can cause time travel if he wants. It's like taking a tape recorder and pushing rewind and fast forward. There's nothing stopping him from creating multiple dimensions too - who knows, maybe he already has. Maybe angel's can flit between our reality and some other parallel universe that exists right here and now but we cannot see unless God wills it.
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#28621 - 06/24/02 09:07 AM Re: How stuff WILL work
Paragon Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/02
Posts: 168
Quote:
if there are infinate universes, I think that they would all steam from the same beginning but each one is a single variation which changes it from then on...like the difference between this universe and the next universe might be me hitting backspace. And then if that were true then maybe if you went back in time you would actually be shifting universes if you could change something and went forwards in time. I don't know...maybe it is all just stuff i think should go in scifi books. Ever see the Langoliers? Never read the book though.
Actually that's what a lot of scientists think. If you go back in time you actually go to an alternate timeline, or you create an alternate timeline. And yes, I've seen the movie and read the book. The book is better.
Quote:
Yeah I see what you mean on the time thing with the light, but still wouldn't that mean that if the thing creating the light went faster than than the speed of light and then slowed down or something that the observer might see something happen backwards for a little while? I am not really paying much attention to what I am saying so maybe after I post if i think about it it will be more obvious or maybe this won't make any sense.
Stop trying not to sound stupid. Questions are good. At least you're not pretending to know what you're talking about.
Um, OK, you said IF you go faster than the speed of light.... But you cannot deccelerate to less than the speed of light anymore that you can accelerate beyond it. There are theoretical particles called tachyons that move faster than light, but the thing is, as they lose energy the go faster. As they gain energy, they slow down towards the speed of light. But there's no way they can slow down to less than the speed of light. It's as much of a barrier from the other side as it is on this side. The speed of light is an asymptotic limit (I think that's the right term).
Quote:
Another thing...is light considered to be (by the majority) a continuous wave kind of thing, or a broken particle kind of thing? I had always heard wave but i have heard particle a few times too. Heh..just going on. But if the light is created and moves one speed, then whatever is creating it catches up to it and is ceating light could more than one wave/particle (or whatever) of light be in the same place? I don't really know what all I am asking, just wondering.
Well, it's both. It's called wave/particle duality. Photons, and matter appear to behave both like waves and like particles at the same time. It's kind of weird actually.
Quote:
one theory of time that I've always like is that you can't go back into the past and change it - cause you'd actually be carrying out what has already been done.

I.E. You go back into the past to prevent Bill Clinton from reaching the presidency, but then you find out - Bill was in the presidency BECAUSE you had already, in the past, attempted to stop him. You had instead, CAUSED it inadvertently.

Under that theory there is nothing you can do to change the past - cause you've already tried. heh. I wonder if this is a little too deep for some of you.
I don't like that theory. It's interesting to think about, but it negates free will. And it just seems too unlikely.
Quote:
One theory about time travel to the past is that it wouldn't effect this specific dimension, but because just traveling to the past to bein with would alter SOMETHING, it would simply create an alternate dimension for everything that altered.
You seem to be using the term dimension when you actually mean alternate universe. It can be kind of confusing.
Quote:
Only reason I don't think it is possible, becuase anytime you start to think about it, there are a million situations that cuase endless logic loops.

For instance, the old question of: "What would happen if you kill your father or mother before they concieve you"
I mean, if you kill them, you can never be born, making it impossible for you to kill them, or perhaps you never were born becuase sometime in the future you did kill your parents, but then how are you here now?
But if you travel to an alternate universe (another timeline) then you avoid all the contradictions.
Quote:
well, under my favorite theory, all attempts to kill your father must have failed cause you ARE alive. heh

Under secular theory, I don't believe time travel is possible - nor are there multiple dimensions.

However, under theistic theory, it may be possible that God can revert the universe to an earlier state - or a future state. Since he knews the past and the future and is all-powerful - than sure, he can cause time travel if he wants. It's like taking a tape recorder and pushing rewind and fast forward. There's nothing stopping him from creating multiple dimensions too - who knows, maybe he already has. Maybe angel's can flit between our reality and some other parallel universe that exists right here and now but we cannot see unless God wills it.
What is secular theory? And what do you mean by multiple dimensions? No alternate universes? Quantum computers probably wouldn't work without them.
Lets not turn this thread into a religious debate.

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#28622 - 06/24/02 10:15 AM Re: How stuff WILL work
SilentRage Offline
DollarDNS Owner

Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 1273
Loc: OH, USA
I'm not debating whether God is real or not. I'm just providing possibilities for both theories. So no worries about religious debate from my end... *grumble about people fearing to say the word "God" in a serious manner*

Secular theory = Basically Atheism, universe was born by a big bang or other means.

Whatever they're talking about in quantom computing is not what I'm talking about. There's a confusion of definition there. What I'm talking about is other "dimensions" (by the most widely accepted meaning) where life forms are communicating and going about their business invisible to us.

Let a man state his opinion without having to defend something which can not be proved or disproved.

"one theory of time that I've always like is..."

There's what I'm talking about. I'm not saying other people are WRONG with their concept of time travel - I just like this one the most - made the most sense in my mind to how the way things work from my angle.

So gosh darnit - I believe you can't time travel unless some supernatural being like GOD (fear dat word! A sermon must be coming on!), which some people believe in, is out there to cause it.
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#28623 - 06/24/02 05:04 PM Re: How stuff WILL work
Paragon Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/02
Posts: 168
Quote:
Originally posted by SilentRage:
I'm not debating whether God is real or not. I'm just providing possibilities for both theories. So no worries about religious debate from my end... *grumble about people fearing to say the word "God" in a serious manner*
LOL! I just wanted to avoid a religious debate. I've started one of those before, but I quickly discovered people can't handle it. They can't control their emotions. And a lot of people just don't know how to argue.
Quote:
Secular theory = Basically Atheism, universe was born by a big bang or other means.
OK.
Quote:
Whatever they're talking about in quantom computing is not what I'm talking about. There's a confusion of definition there. What I'm talking about is other "dimensions" (by the most widely accepted meaning) where life forms are communicating and going about their business invisible to us.
OK, dimension:
"A measure of spatial extent, especially width, height, or length."
I don't know anything about quantum computing involving other dimensions. Can you post a link or something perhaps? The only quantum computing I know about involves other universes. Or at least, strange quantum effects in this universe. But not in other dimensions...
Quote:
Let a man state his opinion without having to defend something which can not be proved or disproved.
I'm not forcing anyone to defend their opinion. I ask more about peoples opinions to learn more about what they think, and I ask questions to understand. If someone wants to just say, "That's my opinion and I don't feel like defending it" then that's fine.
Quote:
I'm not saying other people are WRONG with their concept of time travel - I just like this one the most - made the most sense in my mind to how the way things work from my angle.
Well I like it too, as an interesting (if remote) possibility. But I don't believe it's true (my opinion).

I often attempt to engage others in debate because I enjoy debating. I'm not trying to make others feel threatened by jeapordizing their beliefs. I would think that an intelligent person would want to challenge their beliefs, to see what they can learn.

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#28624 - 06/25/02 04:51 AM Re: How stuff WILL work
Cold Sunn Offline
UGN GFX Whore

Registered: 03/03/02
Posts: 574
Loc: us
Quote:
Originally posted by Paragon&#10:
Stop trying not to sound stupid. Questions are good. At least you're not pretending to know what you're talking about.
I'm not trying to sound anything. I am sure there is evidence supporting the theory that nothing can accelerate past the speed of light or it wouldn't be considered common knowledge, (I plan to search around for it after I make this post), but I have never seen any of it so i am not sure. Also, how do we know we aren't already moving that fast? The universe is expanding, but do we know if it isn't also sliding as a whole. If it were going faster than the speed of light then maybe light created would go faster and since it is relative, we think of us as still, then it would appear to be light speed. Like I said, i haven't looked into this much yet, so that could have a few holes in it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Paragon&#10:

I don't like that theory. It's interesting to think about, but it negates free will. And it just seems too unlikely.
I don't think it negates free will. To me it seems like this, months ago I had a choice of doing my homework or not doing it. Whatever decision I made, I had free will then. Looking back on it, I might wish I had of chosen differently, but it already happened. So let's say you went back in time to do something, before you went back in time you didn't know you were going to do it. So in the loop of what you did you had already done before you went back in time etc. All theory, but i like it because it makes sense.

As for the argument over dimensions or universes, i think it is pretty obvious what someone means when they say alternate dimension. Let's not nitpick. Unless by alternate universe you mean another universe that is physically far away from here but i thought the universe included everything.

Edit: i had the quotes messed up.

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#28625 - 06/25/02 05:11 AM Re: How stuff WILL work
Cold Sunn Offline
UGN GFX Whore

Registered: 03/03/02
Posts: 574
Loc: us
Of course i am not done looking around about breaking the speed of light and such, but going back to where this topic began, howstuffworks.com, found this: http://www.howstuffworks.com/news-item6.htm

I think it will probably be replaced by another piece of news soon since it has a general name, so here is the thing. I'll edit it out or a mod can if they think it is a waste to paste it in the post.

"Once thought to be unbreakable, the speed of light as set by the laws of physics has been exceeded in two recent experiments, according to a New York Times news report. The speed of light in a vacuum, or empty space, is 186,000 miles per second. Exceeding this speed jeopardizes the entire theory of relativity, which rests on the idea that light speed is the universal limit to how fast anything can travel.
Scientists have found ways to break that speed limit. In one experiment performed by researchers at the NEC Research Institute in Princeton, N.J., a pulse of light was sent through a transparent chamber filled with specially prepared cesium gas and was pushed to travel at speeds of 300 times the normal speed of light. The light travels so fast that the main part of the light pulse exits the chamber even before it enters. Theoretically, this means that you could see a moment in time before it actually takes place.

Researchers at the NEC declined to comment on the experiment while it is under review by Nature, a weekly peer-reviewed science journal. However, Kazuko Anderson, a spokesperson with the NEC in New York, confirmed the accuracy of the New York Times report.

In a second superluminal study, published in the May 22 issue of Physical Review Letters, scientists at the Italian National Research Council of Florence shone light beams at a curved mirror. The mirror then shot the beams back at the instrument that measured the rays' speeds. The beam coming from the center of the mirror was measured at 5 percent to 7 percent faster than light speed. The authors said this effect only works over relatively short distances, such as the one meter used by the Italian researchers.

Exceeding the speed of light may have future implications for space travel and computer chips, but for now scientists are uncertain about the practical use of this discovery. Neither experiment was able to use a light beam to carry any information or prove that an object of any weight would be able to travel beyond light speed."

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#28626 - 06/25/02 07:53 AM Re: How stuff WILL work
Paragon Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/02
Posts: 168
I've seen that before. The speed of light was not exceeded though. I did a little more research than you. Go here to see why the speed of light wasn't exceeded.

Quote:
I don't think it negates free will. To me it seems like this, months ago I had a choice of doing my homework or not doing it. Whatever decision I made, I had free will then. Looking back on it, I might wish I had of chosen differently, but it already happened. So let's say you went back in time to do something, before you went back in time you didn't know you were going to do it. So in the loop of what you did you had already done before you went back in time etc. All theory, but i like it because it makes sense.
Doesn't make sense to me. If you go back in time in the same timeline, but can't alter anything, then you don't have free will. Even if you think you do.
Quote:
I am sure there is evidence supporting the theory that nothing can accelerate past the speed of light or it wouldn't be considered common knowledge, (I plan to search around for it after I make this post), but I have never seen any of it so i am not sure. Also, how do we know we aren't already moving that fast? The universe is expanding, but do we know if it isn't also sliding as a whole. If it were going faster than the speed of light then maybe light created would go faster and since it is relative, we think of us as still, then it would appear to be light speed. Like I said, i haven't looked into this much yet, so that could have a few holes in it.
OK, the universe can't be sliding, because by definition the universe is everything. There can be nothing for it to slide in, or towards, because there's nothing "outside" the universe to move relative to. The concept of outside the universe doesn't even make sense.
But there are some "holes" in the theory of relativity. For example the speed of light barrier is only local. You could theoretically (if you had enought energy) warp space around you and make a warp bubble. Just like star trek. Within this bubble you would be moving slower than the speed of light, but the bubble itself would be moving, so from an outside point of view, the speeds would stack and you'd effectively be moving faster than light. Look up the name Miguel Alcubierre.

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#28627 - 06/25/02 10:37 AM Re: How stuff WILL work
quicksilver Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 30
Quote:
I think that they would all steam from the same beginning but each one is a single variation which changes it from then on...like the difference between this universe and the next universe might be me hitting backspace. And then if that were true then maybe if you went back in time you would actually be shifting universes if you could change something and went forwards in time.
I may be wrong, but I think there was actually a startrek(next generation) episode based on a theory like that. I know it is a TV show, but the theory it presented was pretty interesting. For every decision you make in your life, 100s of new paralle universes developed, each one based on how the world would be if you made a different decision.

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#28628 - 06/25/02 11:14 AM Re: How stuff WILL work
quicksilver Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 30
I just finished reading some of the links on quantum computing that were in this thread and one of the 100s I found on google.

If you want a good explination of quantum computer, I found this to explain it well, and simply enough for me to still understand

http://www.cs.caltech.edu/~westside/quantum-intro.html

There are articles like hosted by almost every major university out there. I like this one becuase it is cross referenced well.

From what I understand, quantum computing could have to do with parralle universes, then again it may not. It is all based on superposition, where a qubit( quantum bit) is no longer restrained to just 1 or 0, but could be 1 and 0 at the same time. It's easier to understand if you follow the experiment given in the article. Depending on what quantum theory you believe this could be acheived in various ways, however the multible universe theory is the most widely excepted from what I have read so far.

Here are a few more good links
http://www.qubit.org/oldsite/intros/comp/comp.html

http://feynman.media.mit.edu/quanta/nmrqc-darpa/qc/local.html

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#28629 - 06/25/02 12:16 PM Re: How stuff WILL work
Cold Sunn Offline
UGN GFX Whore

Registered: 03/03/02
Posts: 574
Loc: us
Thanks for the link explaining the other article on breaking the speed of light thing. I guess i should have phrased what i said differenty; i don't mean all the universe, just what we know of it, all the galaxies and things that supposedly came from the big bang. Since the universe is supposed to be infinately big or whatnot, there could be other things we don't or may never know about in the universe. Sorry for wording it wrong. I still don't like the idea that you are only moving if it is compared to something else. About it negating free will, i guess it is all in how you look at it.

One thing i think would be really interesting, is traveling to a different dimension (universe, whatever) where there are completely different laws of physics and all that. I think there are alot of things we still can't explain, so maybe in a different universe they would be different.

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