and by you, I mean everyone who is a US citizen. Will you vote for Bush or not ? Have you seen Farenheit 9/11 and if so what do you think about it ?

Just trying to find out what the majority here on UGN Security will do and if the movie had any influence on you in any way.

I'm voting for myself. Cause all these people suck.

I will be voting for Bush again for one reason; he's the lesser of two Evil's...

"There! I have you! You're completely dished. Do you not know that in the service... one must always choose the lesser of two weevils?"

We are not only a two party system. There are plenty of other parties (just sucks that it is so tough for smaller parties aside from those two). Sure, they probably won't get elected, but then atleast you are:

1] Being active instead of just bitching
2] Not voting for someone simply b/c lesser of two evils
3] Helping your party attract attention to issues and making the larger parties deal with them

I am a member of the Libertarian Party http://www.lp.org . Here is a link to their standing on issues THE LINK

As I stated in the WoMD thread:

The Lacy Peterson law is retarded. It should have been common sense. You kill 2 people, it's double homicide. Why'd we need a new law for it?

Because, in the USA if the child has yet-to-be-born in accordance with abortion laws, it's not alive; therefore if she's pregnent it's not a double homocide as they will argue it's not living. It makes perfect sense if you think of how it works.

Ah, I get it. I still think it should be common sense tho..

In the USA we allow abortions on the grounds "if it's not breathing it's not alive"; this is so for every type of abortion (even partial birth; where the woman births the baby at full term and they kill it)...

Therefore, as we have it now, if the man kills the pregnent woman he is charged with 1 murder for just killing her, it is overlooked that she's pregnent because of how abortions are defined.

Therefore in order to go against how abortions work they have to make a new law to cover the pregnent woman case.

It may be common sense, but pro-choice people just see it as a restriction on their choice to kill a living thing :/...

*grumble*
On topic: I'm 15, so obviously I can't vote. I'm sure I'll get some comments from IceMyst about how all teenagers are retarded, but I would vote for Badnarik. I don't support /all/ of the libertarian philosophies, but Kerry is socialist and Bush wastes money.


*edited by IceMyst (if your gonna bash me in then spell my name right)*

The race is between Bush and Kerry; Bush is the less evil of the two. Any vote for anyone else is a vote against Bush to beat Kerry. Kerry must die...

That's the problem with America. All the fucking adults are like "Well, they both suck, but I'm gonna vote for the less sucky one!" Can't you just vote for someone you ACTUALLY LIKE.. And then they say that the teenagers are idiots who don't know what they really want..

EDIT: Sorry about the rant, just kind of pissed off..

If you vote for someone who will loose anyway, there is no point; your best bet is to vote for the one who will do the less damage; sadly it's the best for the country.

But if it does less damage, then it means the country will eventually be screwed up anyway, so you might as well try to do something right. There are enough people who don't like Bush or Kerry that if they would just vote for who they want we wouldn't have either of them..

Umm no; Bush will do 100% better than kerry; granted i don't agree with bush in the first place. Therefore Bush is the lesser of two evil's and has my support.

Look at it this way:
Bush 49%
Kerry 49%
Other Fucknut 1%

See, the other 1% could be the judging factor; in a lot of cases; see the last election...

Kerry's socialist, Bush's Facist, why not vote for someone who won't ass-rape you once he's president?

That 1% could be larger if people would just realise that it's possible.

There is no point in voting for anyone else you idiot. You vote for someone else and kerry stands a chance to win... Any vote against Bush is a vote for Kerry...

Kerry is sadly the larger fucking idiot than Bush; and you're acting like bush even has a say in what he does! There are other powers in play than just the president you fucking retard; you think that our greedy government would leave every decision up to one person?

Not sure who closed this topic, but it is a good one so I opened it back up.

There are 3 things in this world you can almost assure will bring an argument when talked about.

1.) Sex
2.) Religion
3.) Polotics

This happens to deal with the latter. Lets keep cool heads and disscuss this like we can.

I find the choices to be awful. This is however our(The american peoples)fault. It is possible that one of these independent parties will rise up. May I remind you about an old US political party which held much power, "The Wigs". They are no more so it is possible.

I think the Democratic party has gone to shit. It started out as a good idea, but now is backed by every sicko out there. Groups trying to leagalise petofilia go through the democratic party.

The republican party is best if you are a rich white person.

So I find myself stuck with having to find another party. I think most of middle america will soon see this as well. Look at what some of the Democrats are doing these days. Just fucking wrong. The republicans will run this planet into a new ice age, or masive heat increase. Mostly greed powers this party.

So we have The green party who will never be taken seriously.
The libritarian party, they have a better shot.

There is also the commusit party. Didn't work for Russia(True comunissim is awsome on paper but will never work in real life)

I would like to see a non career polotician get in for once. Someone who dosen't have to pay back any debts. But I know if that happened he would never get anything done. He would hit grid lock in congress. So I ask you all, what do you think will fix the system we have going here?

I closed it; leave it closed. If you want a debate go to the debate section, not off topic.

None the less heres the standing:
RedMage can't get his head out of his ass to actually think of the actual choices that we have in front of us.
Dashocker is being a little bitch.

If this topic continue's on all we'll see every other post is RedMage stating "well it's common sense" as if we didn't hear him the first fucking time...

Women's Right to Vote
Both the Prohibition and Socialist Parties promoted women's suffrage during the late 1800's. By 1916, both Republicans and Democrats supported it and by 1920, the 19th Amendment giving women the right to vote had been ratified.

Child Labor Laws
The Socialist Party first advocated laws establishing minimum ages and limiting hours of work for American children in 1904. The Keating-Owen Act established such laws in 1916.

Immigration Restrictions
The Immigration Act of 1924 came about as a result of support by the Populist Party starting as early as the early 1890's.

Reduction of Working Hours
You can thank the Populist and Socialist Parties for the 40-hour work week. Their support for reduced working hours during the 1890's led to the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938.

Income Tax
In the 1890's, the Populist and Socialist Parties supported a "progressive" tax system that would base a person's tax liability on their amount of income. The idea led to ratification of the 16th Amendment in 1913.

Social Security
The Socialist Party also supported a fund to provide temporary compensation for the unemployed in the late 1920's. The idea led to the creation of laws establishing unemployment insurance and the Social Security Act of 1935.

"Tough on Crime"
In 1968, the American Independent Party and its presidential candidate George Wallace advocated "getting tough on crime." The Republican Party adopted the idea in its platform and the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968 was the result. (George Wallace won 46 electoral votes in the 1968 election. This was the highest number of electoral votes collected by a third party candidate since Teddy Roosevelt, running for the Progressive Party in 1912, won 88 votes.)

Link for more information about why 3rd parties are good is here

No need to respond to any of this Giz. This is for the interested people out there, you said your point and won't be changing your mind or opening it to any other ways of thinking.

I know they're not likely to change because everyone feels bad for those poor kids with jobs, but I REALLY hate these laws. "Oh sorry, you're a little kid (I'm 15), so you can't get a job cuz people would feel bad about it!";"But I want some fucking money!!";"That's nice, we can't hire you till you're 16."

Social security is so stupid. If anyone took the time they could make more money than social security gives you, but there's no choice.

Don't mean to be bashing you jonconley, just mentioning a couple things. Thanks to whoever moved this to the "debates and rants" section

Jon moved it due to my comment.

As for social security it does desperatealy need to be canned... Look at all the baby boomers who are now retiring to depend on it; now look at how many less people there are who are paying into it... Now stop to think, if we're having trouble right now paying into it; there will be nothing there for those of us who are under 40... We're fucked and paying into something we'll never see... Kinda fun ain't it...

agree with both of you on social security

red mage; I think you fail to understand what child labor laws prevented. Its not stopping kids from working at McDonalds after school. Google some stuff on the internet yourself and read about the types of jobs and hours/conditions children endured before such laws.

In my state they say just the opposite, every vote for an independant is a vote for Bush. That Nader is just drawing votes from Kerry. They even have Republicans out getting signatures to get him on the ballot just to draw votes from Kerry. How is that for dirty pool?

The Lacy Peterson law opens doors for pro-lifers. That is why Kerry voted against it.

This whole pro-life/pro-choice situation bothers me. To me it seems that Democrates should be pro-life while republicans should be pro-choice. I mean Republicans want less government less taxes and people to take responsibility for thier actions. They are. They are choosing to take responsibility and terminate thier pregnancy instead of creating more of a burden on the state. While Democrates don't mind creating more taxes and governmental institutions to take care of the single mothers and welfare recipients.

Bush's education reform sucked. His healthcare reform (medicare/medicaid) is crappy too.

I do believe the voting for "lesser of two evils" is a misconception when they are both actually the same evil. Skull and Bones.

I'm going to vote for Bush so I can live to see WWIII
But actually if you think the economy is bad right now or even if you think it's good, just imagine when the war is over and all the soldiers come home and they need jobs too...

Jon, they can only work Part Time in the US; generally 20-28 hours.

I want less taxes, no social security and all the mexicans and blacks who don't contribute and just get wellfare for their 90 brats need to be expedited back to their originating country (or their ancestor's at least).

Did you know that about 80% of the mexicans on wellfare are illegals? My mom worked at the "child help" place, the people who monitor you and your kids so that you don't end up killing them... Most of the people being "watched" where mexicans, no green card, 5-20 kids... Sickens the shit out of me...

I'm not racist against mexicans, i know they can do anything a white man can do, however a large sum are so fuckin lazy that they can't even keep awake at work... (I've noticed from experiance at callcenters that the people more abpt to fall asleep on the phones are the mexicans who get paid more a their "multilingual")...

They may be "the same evil" but kerry has stated:
1. He wants it so anyone, even a 12 year old, can get an abortion; without their parents even knowing.
2. Shools (as low as grade 3) can hand out birth control pills and the morning after pills to students; without parental permission.

Kerry seems to think that parents have no rights with what their brats do; I'm sorry, if it's a part of me I have every right to ducktape it to a bed for 9 months then adobpt the kid out...

The economy sucks right now, wanna know why? All of our businesses are moving to India and Pakistan (some even mexico) due to cheaper labor... That's why we're fucked...

That's due to a mixture of two things: Americans demand fucking high wages, and the taxes take away half of it.

You know.. I think I'm gonna have to agree with you Gizmo

I don't have a problem with Mexicans or Blacks in our country, the problem is them coming just to get on welfare. I personally don't like welfare, but I think that if you immigrate, you shouldn't be eligible for welfare..

The question is really whether you think that a fetus is alive. I don't understand (just about) everyone in each of those parties seems to agree on it..

But it is stopping kids from working at McDonalds after school. Couldn't they at least specify that you can't work at a factory or something? In Colorado at least, I can't get /any/ part-time job until I'm 16 and I can't work more than 20 hours a week until I'm 18(so the only job I can do is yard work, lawn mowing, ect).

I dissagree, we demand higher wages because the cost of living is a bitch and a half. Working $8/hr for 40 hours a week you have at MAX $1000 per month after taxes; that covers rent ($400-$1500 depending on where you're at) and hopefully food. They want lower wages? Lower taxes and cost of living costs.

See, at least bush is anal about abortions, never have to worry about that there ...

Agreed, if you wheren't born here you don't qualify to run for president, wtf should you be able to drain our economy? They come here for "better chances of making a life", then they sit and drain up public resources because their too fuckin lazy to do anything but have sex and shoot people (I'm mainly talking California; have you ever BEEN to socal? Jesus Christ)...

Ask a scientist if a worm is alive... It moves, it thinks, it consumes, etc... A fetus moves from day one, it technically thinks as it's a programmed response from the egg and sperm, and it consumes as it takes resources from the mother.

I mean no offence here towards you; but if the choice is between a minor who has a place to live and a person on their own, in this economy, the minor can go fuck himself ...

Couple points: I missed the part where African-Americans decided to come to this country. Oh wait, they didn't...Gizmo, didn't you just complain about Mexicans being a danger to their kids? Then you want to duck-tape yours? The points about Kerry's views of birth control/abortion, etc. I'll pass over. Red Mage, maybe it's because of *state* laws you are unable to get work? Here's a link: http://www.coworkforce.com/LAB/ColoYouthOpportunityAct.pdf
I do agree with you on one point: if you don't pay your taxes you should not be able to use the resources intended for those who do.

To have them be able to live with themselves later on, yes I would ductape my kid to a bed for 9 months.

And actually, the black people sold the black people to us, we didn't just go over to africa and threw them on a boat. People who do bad things are basically property to those theive fucked over in some countries... Then they get sold to white people, fed, beaten a little, and have a secure job and place to sleep...

My big beef with black people isn't so much that they where slaves... My beef with black people are those who shit and bitch about slavery when they where never directly effected; their ancestors where. That an the fact that some blakc people now are getting cash due to their ancestors being slaves...

Now, I may come off as an asshole on this topic, however... If you aren't the one who was a slave, why the fuck are we giving you cash for your ancestors being one? That's just another set of cash set aside for yet-another group of people too fucking lazy to get a job that could better be used for education.

I don't mind immigrants running for president, I mean, it doens't make much of a difference. What I think is stupid is that they don't even have to green cards to get welfare, I mean they're not even here legally, why are we paying them!? The problem with Cali is that so many people are on welfare that they outvote the minority (which happens to be the fuckin' rich white people).

Absolutely true. I just wish they'd stop acting all high and mighty saying that they're doing it to "protect us".

That was so long ago, the only reason it's an issue is because they're lazy. Don't get me wrong, I think any group that had an opportunity to bum money off people would do it, whether they're white, black or mexican.

One last thing, Gizmo, have you ever thought of getting your child (not sure if you have one, or if this is hypothetical) a chastity belt (the chick in Men in Tights wears one)

lol; Yeh I'll agree that it's stupid about letting minors work full time; it's their time; should be their decision.

Agreed about the laziness ...

Actually I have, however it's illegal so not a possiblity.

Wow, anyone else notice how me and Gizmo started out this thread cussing at eachother and it ended up with us agreeing?

ahh shaddap...

Responses to what you wanted done on certain issues Gizmo, seemingly fits well with Libertarian Party's platform

IMMIGRATION
Not to mention the LP's ideas to reform and remove welfare altogether.

TAXES
Privatize and cut taxes, get rid of income tax, stop bailing out industries, replace social security with private investments.


EMPLOYMENT: PRIVACY:

I think Gizmo does agree with most (if not all) ideas in Libertarianism, he just doesn't think that there's any point to voting libertarian because the 1st parties always win.

Some; but if you think about it, every vote counts in the long run; look at how close our last election was... Just a few votes could sway it in either direction... My motto in this reguards: if you know it's going to be close between party 1 and 2, don't vote for party 3; vote for who you feel would make the better of party 1 and 2.

The problem is that there's enough people who /don't/ support parties 1 & 2, but think there's no choice, that a 3rd party could win if people would just try.

No, the problem is that 3rd party canidates are a waste of time and just a bunch of crap. Seriously if some progressive 3rd party canidate actually won the election guess what he could do... jack fucking shit... thats right the 3rd Party President would be powerless cause while you were whining about your loser canidate for President, the House and Senate filled up with Democrates and Republicans, and that's where the real power is, they can just sit there and shoot down everything this President tries to push, unless he wants to be a Veto President, so basically yeah go ahead try, it ain't gonna happen.

Well I think I am going to be voting for a 3rd party canidate. Not because there is one I like, or because I think they will win. Mainly because I think that there needs to be more than 2 partys in the running, because if another party gets a certian percentage of the popular vote than they will get funding and be regonized like the republician and democratic partys. Then maybe we can get someone worth while in office instead of everyone voting for the lesser of 2 evils.