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#4785 - 05/21/03 12:43 AM What do you think of Bush now?
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
This may come as a surprise to some, especially jon In the coming elections, when I vote, I'll be voting for whoever runs against Bush. I really, really don't like what happened with Iraq, though as yet I haven't seen any repurcussions. My main issue is that the main reasoning for invading Iraq was because they're a threat, and the WoMD weren't destroyed and all that. Then we go in... and still didn't find anything worthwhile. To keep it from being a political fiasco, we're told that the war was successful in achieving our primary goal - liberating the Iraqi people from a tyrant ruler. Now I suppose that's a noble goal, if the people actually want to be liberated, but more importantly if that's the reason we did it. It just seems to me that once Bush found out that there was no evidence at all of weapons, he covered his ass by saying we went in to liberate the Iraqis. So I supported everything at the beginning, and now I'm just upset at how it all resulted. Has anyone's opinion changed on the Bush administration?

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#4786 - 05/21/03 12:55 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
$500,000 Bentley Offline
Member

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 259
Loc: SXM
yea, dumbfuck(hereafter refered 2 as bush)is crazy. hes finishin what his dad started. if america can make it to 2004 then bush will hopefully lose elections.
_________________________
If your not living life on the edge, your taking up to much room

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#4787 - 05/21/03 11:10 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
ohfuk Offline
UGN Supporter

Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 274
perg, what if 2 years down the road they find a few tons of (place terrible soposed threat here) burried somewhere in the middle of the desert? then would the cause be justified? would you have suported his reelection? how does one know such a threat never did exist, or no longer does?
bently, why the fuck wouldnt america make it to 2004? how can you possibly think that it wouldnt? it would take a shit load of weapons to finish us off, not gonna happen.
Bush is a man that believes in ultimate truths. he believes there is a wright and a wrong, and regardless of what happens, he will always believe he is in the right. The only way that iraq could of possibly pissed me off is if they kicked our asses. fortunatly, it didnt take that long and it didnt cause that many american or iraqi civilian deaths. i heard something on on ebaumsworld.com, an anti-war american high school girl got bitched out by some iraqi guy saying that he was for the war because his country needed liberation. dont know how many ppl he really represents, but im willing to bet its quite a large percentage. thus, despite the change in motives for war, there still was a decent reason, so i only think bush is a hard headed guy with bad forein relation skills. nothing i didnt think before.

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#4788 - 05/22/03 12:43 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
BackSlash Offline
UGN's Resident Homo

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 599
Loc: TN
i agree with ohfuk in that bush has no foriegn relation skills, if his main goal was to liberate the iraqi people he should have stated that in the first place. i don't necessarily disagree with the war, i think the iraqi people will be better off liberated, however, i disagree with the way in which america went about doing it.
_________________________
"It's better to burn out, than to fade away."

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#4789 - 05/22/03 10:18 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
dashocker Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 524
Loc: Cornfields everywhere...
Bah, I'm willing to forgive him on this stupid Iraqi shit. I'm even willing to bend on his strong-arm foreign policy. But c'mon: the guy does not give one iota about domestic issues. That really pisses me off. He's president of THIS country; WE elected him; OUR economy is shit, etc. This "terror" thing is also out of control. One trusted CNN correspondent told me yesterday that "the chatter we are hearing is very similar to the days before 9/11." What the fuck is "chatter?" If you are going to tell me something, say it dammit! I don't want to be scared of everyone who studies buildings just because that's the only information you're willing to give me, asshole.

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#4790 - 05/23/03 03:31 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Chem Offline
UGN News Staff

Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 364
Loc: Vagabond (Location Differs)
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#4791 - 05/23/03 04:46 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
jonconley Offline
UGN Super Poster

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 955
Loc: Merrill, IA, USA
a] The government said it has definite proof of WMD and knew their locations. However, they were unable to show "us" (the american people or other countries) any proof, b/c it would compromise the security of the individuals involved in the process. I really hoped they would find weapons, but its become apparent with many of the inspectors leaving, that they did not have exact locations or any positive proof. Now I know they have "mobile facilities", but nothing has come back from any inspections on those or the initial missile supposedly carrying a chemical agent (found pre-war). So we are left hanging out to dry.

b] It was quite obvious and has now been pointed out by the Ds (they supported the president through the war and are now voicing themselves), that there was obvious propaganda attempting to spin attention away from Bin Laden and create a link to 9-11 and Saddam. Of which, there has been no single shred of proof.

c] Shortly after the war slowed down, president bush came on television and told the american people, irrelevant of finding any WMD in Iraq, he had already considered the war a success b/c the people of iraq were liberated. We didn't use the reason of liberation to go in there, a lot of countries NEED liberation moreso than Iraq (not that I condone liberating other countries), and it should not be made an issue now, to escape the failing of the government.

d] The reports coming back from the americans in Iraq is horrible. The Iraqis have told us they do not want america to place a government (a "puppet government" as they called it, they want to hold their own elections and already have a candidate that is gaining large groups of support among the people.

e] The US has to address some real war crime issues. First of all, the unprovoked attack on Iraq makes the entire war a mass war crime and violation of international law. Secondly, Al-Jazeera reported to the pentagon their location in Iraq, to avoid being bombed. After this was done, the US still bombed an actual site of aljazeera, killing reported. Now, not only is this bad enough, but Al-Jazeera made it a point to report this time, simply because when we were bombing afghanistan, we BOMBED al-jazeera too. So my problem with this is they are civilians, and when we are bombing perhaps the most unbiased media in the middle east (they have shown both sides through out many issues, America, Iraq, and leaders from both countries), there is obviously a huge problem with what we are doing.

f] I am shocked perg

g] No one will read this because it is too long, I know. But I feel better now.

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#4792 - 05/23/03 04:56 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
SilentRage Offline
DollarDNS Owner

Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 1273
Loc: OH, USA
Out of whim I read it. I still haven't read perg's post. But just letting you know somebody read it. Now I'm hungry and going to go get something to eat.
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#4793 - 05/23/03 05:06 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
hey i read it! i couldn't agree more with you not just cuz i'm girlfriend either!

yeah.. i'm shocked too. wow.. Perg... wtf? it's amazing. i just remember all the previous debates about government/war etc. hahaha. way to go! it's impressive that you are able to see the truth and realize what's up. yay! now be a good boy and do the side smiley thing for me!!


i have a few things to add: nothing too big.. but ya know.. whatever.

a: i agree, Bush doesn't give two shits about the US. his domestic policies, or should i say policy (singular) is crap. cutting taxes the way he is will NOT make things better. he's already gotten us in way too deep. perhaps if we hadn't just had a few billion dollars worth of war the tax cuts would help. but no... too little too late baby Bush. oh... ya know what the US really needs more than anything? A GOOD EDUCATION POLICY!!! c'mon! let's get take these kids and make them use their brains. stop fucking teaching morals and preaching about sex,drugs,tobacco and alcohol.. teach the kids how to fucking read! teach them to write papers! teach them something that is of some use! arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. that is how pissed i am at the school system. when i'm president, they better fucking fear me.. cuz most of the teachers will either be shot or just fired for being complete ignoramuses.

b: i am sick of these fucking die hard republicans justifying this war. for example.. my parents. i love them to death.. they are very smart people... but they fucking buy into everything that Bush says! they take his word as if it were fucking handed down by god. (yeah.. the parents are really involved in the church now. wtf? when i was little... we didn't go to church..blahhh) anyway.. i'm sick of the media, the citizens buying into the bullshit.

c: TAKE DOWN THOSE FUCKING RIDICULOUS AMERICAN FLAGS! PRONTO! i am literally sick to my stomach everytime i see the flag now. how come everyone is faking it and pretending to be patriotic? if you are.. that's fine. but you don't need to display it for everyone to see. arghhh. yes, the parents have all kinds of flag paraphanalia. how obnoxious! oh, and anyone who says anything negative about bush or his fucking holy war with iraq is atuomatically "un-american". blahhhhh

d: seriously... the terror level warning scale thing needs to go. wtf? does anyone care that we're on orange right now? blahh.. scare tactics.. that is all that is. keep people scared so they'll blindly follow as we lead them into whatever we feel like doing today.
US leaders: hrmm.. let's see.. i think i'll start a war for no reason! remember, Saddamm has missiles! ohhhh what a bad guy for having missiles. let's kill him cuz he's so obviously evil for owning missiles!
the citizens: oh that is fabulous! let's do it! go USA!

arghh.. sorry. i totally went off on a rant there. but i needed to. don't even bother to respond to me.. i'm just insane. arghh
_________________________
"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#4794 - 05/23/03 08:53 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
dashocker Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 524
Loc: Cornfields everywhere...
damn Fleshy, I agree with everything you just said! I mean: you hit every issue I would've done if I didn't have other things to do! Go girl!

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#4795 - 05/24/03 03:04 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
Fleshy, I'm not "seeing the truth" right now, or doing anything differently at all. I believed everything, because I have faith in our country and our government. I felt that it made sense not to disclose any information to the public until after this was all over. Now that it's over, we've yet to see anything. There is no more operational security, we bombed the hell out of em, and control it as much as we need to. So there's no risk anymore in saying where and when the weapons were manufactured. Problem is, we don't have anything like that. So that's what pisses me off, and that's the reason I won't be voting for Bush. Nobody sends my dad to go looking for chemical weapons and then casts aside the justification for sending him in

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#4796 - 05/24/03 03:06 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
Oh yeah, fleshy, I have an American flag hanging from my door, and another little one on my truck. Both alongside Marine Corps flags. I won't take em down, even for you

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#4797 - 05/24/03 04:32 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
hehehe. i would take my flags down for you! (if i had any that is).
_________________________
"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#4798 - 05/27/03 08:18 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Gollum Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 207
Loc: US
hmmm...i'd have to disagree with you flesh. i'm pro-war and pro-bush. and by saying that we saddam didn't have any weapons he wasn't supposed to? that's wrong. how do we know? cuz he fired them at us. he fired multiple (scud?) missiles which he wasn't supposed to have, and that the inspectors never found b4. we also have found (what we believe to be) mobile chem labs. trick doors and storage bins with pully systems? what else would they be hiding? as for the reporters. do i think killing them is right? no. but just note, that many ppl who work at those stations are baath party officials who were trying to hide from american forces. now you might be saying, well, even still. there's no ROCK SOLID proof of womd.
i mean, look at it this way. your talking with someone who doesn't really like you, and if he got the chance, he'd probably try to kill you. and you ahve partial evidence he may be carrying a gun. now you can't see it (he's got big hands, lol, just bare with me) so you say "do you have a gun" he of course would say "no" so you say, ok, give us proof. he writes on a piece of paper, "i dont' have a gun" are you supposed to believe him? of course not. so you say, ok, i'm gonna get someone to make sure. so you call over another person, while you do that, he puts the gun in the other hand. when the person checks he says "see? no gun" do you still trust him? we'll say your a skeptic and don't. so you say, ok, prove to me again you don't. so he picks up the same piece of paper and says "see?" are you supposed to just take his word for it? obviously somethings up. so you say, "thats it, i'm gonna find out by force if i have to" and as he says "but i don't have anything" he's acutally handing it to a friend of his behind his back. so you hit him, and check him, obviously he's got nothing on him. not the best analogy, but i gotta work soon, and it's all i could think of.

and so did anyone here think about syria? i'm willing to guarantee you that they were moved there. which makes syria just as bad as iraq, seeing as how they fund more terrorist organizations. so you might now say "but syria was/is giving up party officials to US forces...how can they be against us if they're helping" that's b/c they're not helping us, they're just appeasing us. they're giving us enough to hold us over...for now.
as for the tax cuts and stuff not helpig the economy just b/c they're for richer ppl. tell me, how many middle class americans trade millions of dollars worth of stock every day? not many. richer ppl get the tax cuts b/c they'll invest the money into our economy, thereby helping it. and a healthy economy will help everyone. however, i do think it was bad timing on bush's side to put in the tax cut, then have a war. just too much stuff happening that coudln't.
as for too many american flags. fake patriotism isn't good, but it's better than anti-americanism if you ask me. i dno't think it's possible to see too many american flags. i mean, c'mon, we're in america! whether you agree with what it's doing or not, it has been good to you hasn't it? i have one flag hanging in my window facing the street, and another hanging outside on my porch. and i must say, i smile everytime i drive down the street and see a huge line of them hanging over a bridge.
just as long as i don't see any french flags =P

sorry for the long post lol, but i'll stop here, and i didn't mean to pick on you fleshwound, but you had the most organized post so it was the easiest for me to extract your specific ideas from. i'll probably continue this later...or not, lol...//
_________________________
Unbodied unsouled unheard unseen
Let the gift be grown in the time to call our own
Truth is natural like a wind that blows
Follow the direction no matter where it goes
Let the truth blow like a hurricane through me

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#4799 - 05/28/03 01:12 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
dashocker Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 524
Loc: Cornfields everywhere...
Quote:
Originally posted by Gollum:
i mean, look at it this way. your talking with someone who doesn't really like you, and if he got the chance, he'd probably try to kill you. and you ahve partial evidence he may be carrying a gun. now you can't see it (he's got big hands, lol, just bare with me) so you say "do you have a gun" he of course would say "no" so you say, ok, give us proof. he writes on a piece of paper, "i dont' have a gun" are you supposed to believe him? of course not.
Thank you for proving you can't prove a negative.
It's what I like to call a "lose/lose situation."

Quote:

tell me, how many middle class americans trade millions of dollars worth of stock every day? not many. richer ppl get the tax cuts b/c they'll invest the money into our economy, thereby helping it.
Although you make somewhat of a good point, you really think this money will benefit the wealthiest in any way? If they already have money, what use is say 1000$ more? Nada, this trickle-down Reaganomics shit is well...shit. And if you admit this well only help the rich, then why are we making an even bigger deficit to give the refund to everyone? Here's how it really works: Rich people get more money. They buy more stuff. I tell my cousins Cletus and Bubba. They break into the house. /me points to wrist: "Rolex." - Trickle-down economic theory

(OK, so the whole "quote" thing didn't work.)

** Just made the quotes work - perg **

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#4800 - 05/28/03 04:31 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
We've got this thing in America in dealing with criminals, and it's the fact that they're innocent until proven guilty. I'm willing to concede this a bit in these circumstances, where there's evidence and far greater consequences. However now we've taken control, and have yet to find anything. My allowed time period is up. It's no longer time for Iraq to prove that they don't have anything, it's time for us to prove that they do.

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#4801 - 05/28/03 05:47 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
ahh.... gollum, i know that everyone is entitled ot their own opinion.... but really.. i couldn't disagree more. oh well.
_________________________
"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#4802 - 05/28/03 05:48 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
If you're not sure what to think... side with fleshy, she's the hottest person who reads the forums

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#4803 - 05/28/03 05:49 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
jonconley Offline
UGN Super Poster

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 955
Loc: Merrill, IA, USA
Perg, what does your dad think? I mean alot of us, including me, can go ahead and say this and that, but most importantly, is how do the men and women and the service feel about the spin that has been put on the war and would your dad have wanted to go regardless of the reasoning, etc?

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#4804 - 05/28/03 05:51 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
omg.. perg.. /me blushes and girly giggles. hahahahahaha. you just made my day!
_________________________
"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#4805 - 05/28/03 05:51 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
My dad's been in for 22 years, and is now a senior officer. He does what the Commander in Chief says, no questions asked. He may disagree with the reasons, but that's just a sacrifice he's made. Personal reasons don't matter, the CinC's word is paramount.

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#4806 - 05/28/03 05:52 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
Well I'm not too far away if you wanna visit... I leave June 3rd for Japan though, so better make it quick.

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#4807 - 05/28/03 05:55 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
hehehe. i'm back in iowa! so you are too far away now
_________________________
"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#4808 - 05/28/03 07:23 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Gollum Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 207
Loc: US
i plan on joining the marines or army within the year, but that makes no difference in what i would think...well, not yet anyway. i know when i join, that anything can happen, and i have to realize that i could very well pay with my life. like perg said, it's a sacrafice you have to make. and hey, "If you're not sure what to think... side with fleshy, she's the hottest person who reads the forums" ((note: i used regular quotes b/c i lack the knowledge of how to do it the fancy way =P)) if you put me in a summer dress...i bet i could look hot too! i mean, i think we all know flesh is hot, but in trying to stay in line w/ the topic, unless you can prove i can't be as sexy, you shouldn't say i'm not =P ::scratches self:: so err uhh, how bout that bears game?//
_________________________
Unbodied unsouled unheard unseen
Let the gift be grown in the time to call our own
Truth is natural like a wind that blows
Follow the direction no matter where it goes
Let the truth blow like a hurricane through me

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#4809 - 05/28/03 02:21 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
hahaha. i want to see you in a dress! take pics.. i'll get into a dress and take pics.. then we'll post them and see who is hotter. i know it'll be a tough competition though... cuz i'm sure you are so sexy in a dress. hehehe
_________________________
"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#4810 - 05/28/03 05:38 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Gollum Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 207
Loc: US
hey now, i'll need some time to get in shape. can't have any of my pudge showing through a two piece ^_^
_________________________
Unbodied unsouled unheard unseen
Let the gift be grown in the time to call our own
Truth is natural like a wind that blows
Follow the direction no matter where it goes
Let the truth blow like a hurricane through me

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#4811 - 05/28/03 07:54 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
jonconley Offline
UGN Super Poster

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 955
Loc: Merrill, IA, USA
I say ya both can have 3ft of dental floss, to place creatively on your body...

Dresses are so passe.

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#4812 - 06/18/03 08:39 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Crime Offline
UGN Super Poster

Registered: 03/01/02
Posts: 505
Loc: Tartarus




buddies ^

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#4813 - 06/19/03 08:44 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
Oh yeah jon, if you care, I found out a couple weeks ago that it's actually a crime for a member of the armed forces to speak out against certain officials. Speaking out doesn't mean only public speaking, but even in your own home, in this case. I doubt many people would turn in their own kin, but nonetheless it's a crime punishable by court marshall to speak against certain leaders. These include the President, members of the Joint Chiefs, Secretaries of (State, Defense), and a couple of the really high generals and admirals.

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#4814 - 06/19/03 04:39 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
jonconley Offline
UGN Super Poster

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 955
Loc: Merrill, IA, USA
Wasn't aware of that. Any idea when that was passed and/or why?

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#4815 - 06/19/03 07:54 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
sinetific Offline
nobody

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 815
Loc: Ann Arbor
Well I think it has to do with the 'superior officer' thing. Considering the president is the head of the armed forces. There is a certain protocol for adressing superior officers and you have to obey thier orders and all that shit. I bet learner would know about this.

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#4816 - 06/19/03 08:30 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Gollum Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 207
Loc: US
seems to me like it ruins the whole free speech thing. but if you look at it logically. if a foreign power were to try to sew the seeds of dissention, oen of their targets would be the military. therefore, if anyone in the military and talk down about the decisions made by a higher officer. whether he's a legit serviceman or a spy, it can cause problems with rank. a general is only as powerful as the ppl that follow him. if nobody does, he has no power. therefore, to assure that he retains his respect and power, they have to assure that there aren't any ppl trying to throw him over. so yeah, it does sound like an infringement of human rights, but it does have a logical reason.//
_________________________
Unbodied unsouled unheard unseen
Let the gift be grown in the time to call our own
Truth is natural like a wind that blows
Follow the direction no matter where it goes
Let the truth blow like a hurricane through me

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#4817 - 06/19/03 10:07 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
Civil liberties of service members are limited, not only in that regard. I don't know everything, but I do know that they're not allowed to join in protests. This includes protesting anything, not only protesting against the government or military.

The Uniform Code of Military Justice:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm

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#4818 - 06/24/03 01:11 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
jonconley Offline
UGN Super Poster

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 955
Loc: Merrill, IA, USA
Slighty OT but I read this today and reinforces some thoughts about the war that I had.

To me this is one of those things where Americans had a chance to separate themselves from being regarded as similar to most other military occupations all over the world. To actually show care and consideration for the people they supposedly went over their to free. "Iraqi Freedom" wasn't about weapons??, guess it wasn't about helping them out after they were free, either.

Soldier Says Iraqi Children Turned Away

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#4819 - 06/24/03 03:44 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
oh my god! that is fucking awful! wtf??? arghhhh... as if i wasn't angry enough! haha. poor kids. it's good that they are ok now, but still. we could have helped them. no wonder the rest of the world thinks the US is full of assholes!
_________________________
"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#4820 - 06/24/03 06:07 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
The horrible thing is that's what you read. Nobody gives a fuck about all the times somebody comes to the American military for help, and servicemen willingly aide them. Nobody gives a fuck about all the times when something happens in a community and the servicemen voluntarily go out and help. Nobody gives a fuck when they're ordered to do it, and once the day's over and they can go home, they continue to help. We read about the single incident where some punk ass doctors turned away kids in need. I think it's awful, I think the doctors should be ashamed and reprimanded. I think the American media should be ashamed and reprimanded for only reporting this. It's no wonder the rest of the world things the US is full of assholes, and it's no wonder America thinks our military is horribly corrupt. Nobody gives a fuck when anybody does some good. There are so many servicemembers that do more good in a day than the majority of Americans will do in their entire lives.

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#4821 - 06/24/03 06:29 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
damn! perg is angry! hahaha. hey, i'm not saying that the military never does any good. so calm yourself!

also, think of it this way: that's what's being reported.. but think of all the other bad things they've done that haven't been! i'm sure there have been more than just this once instance.
_________________________
"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#4822 - 06/24/03 07:12 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
psychogen Offline
Member

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 257
Loc: UK
uhhhhhhhh I think ill return home and write my own essay on this subject over night as this is a seriously fun debate!

and I can say now I have my own issues tos state on the subject
_________________________
The use of "hacker" to mean "security breaker" is a confusion on the part of the mass media. We hackers refuse to recognize that meaning, and continue using the word to mean, "Someone who loves to program and enjoys being clever about it."
--------------------
"Its not a bug, its a feature" (Epic Games)

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#4823 - 06/24/03 07:35 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
Damn right I'm angry. Not at you, you're too cool (*cough* and hot *cough*). I'm angry at all the bullshit journalists that think the only thing worth reading is the bad stuff, and all the dumbass people that think the only stuff that happens is what they read. And the dumbass people that don't demand that journalists report more than just the bad stuff. But we have a fascination with the abomination that we can't escape, so that stupid shit sells. I know more horrible things than that happen. Every few months a guy here will go out in town and rape a local chick. Fights happen almost every night. My dad's been called in to work every night at 4am for the past week because some stupid Marines got drunk and got in bar fights. But you know what? There are millions of people in the armed services that do their jobs, and do them impeccably. There are a few thousand people who fuck things up. Nobody knows about the millions of amazing Americans who represent our country flawlessly, who make this a great country to live in. Everybody knows about the relatively few people who screw up and give themselves, the military, and the United States a bad name. And you know why I think that is? Because the majority of Americans realize that they don't do shit in their lives, that they're pathetic and meaningless, and look at people who have values worth dying for and realize they can never compare to those individuals, can't ever come close. This isn't just with the military, this is with everything. People are looking for examples of fuck ups in quality organizations. If you can look at somebody who represents high ideals, who should be holding himself to something greater than himself, and who falls, then you can begin to feel as though your life is worth slightly more than the dogshit you pick up every day. This isn't directed towards anyone here, but to the gutless slobs that make sweeping generalizations about any group of people in order to give themselves some worth.

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#4824 - 06/25/03 05:37 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
read this.. it made me giggle. cuz it's true and creative! http://maddox.xmission.com/bomb_iran.html
_________________________
"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#4825 - 08/26/03 03:56 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
HitYouth Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 8
In order to get elected, a potential presidental candidate has to make a vast amount of money on a weekly basis in order to get the amount of political exposure (not Clinton style) required to get elected.

The only way for a candidate, be they Republican (Go Arnie!!!) or Democrat to accrue such vast (and I mean vaaasst) funds is to utilize corporate sponsorship, as a direct result of such a system, Political leaders directly reflect the opinions of their sponsors. These sponsers are invariably Health Insurance Companies, Oil Companies and large scale industries.

Therefore, no matter who is elected, the overall system will never change, people will always be royally porked over things like health insurance and oil will always be the driving force behind political occupations. UK gets socialist health care, they don't have to pay for operations or anything... If you get shot, they look for the exit wound not the certificate of insurance.

The truth is, that prior to 1991 Saddam was considered an ally of the US and UK, infact both sides sold weapons to the Iraqi's and provided military training to assist in the campaign (which yeah they did kind of use chemical weapons... whoops why didn't we go in then???) against Iran (who we like now apparently).

The invasion of Kuwait was premeditated and ran under a flag of so called retrieval of territory by Saddam, he even applied to the UN for authorisation...

Naturally as Kuwait has/had a massive percentage of the worlds oil supplies, the rest of the world could not allow one man to corner such a market share as it would grant him almost limitless political power. How long would America last without oil??? Imagine if your petrol went up 400% in price... (Then I would authorise gamma strikes but that's just me)

This war and the first war were portrayed as a liberation, when they were both merely an exercise in maintaining the geo-political status quo, no matter whether it was a flag of righteousness of a banner of war, the motive remains cold and political.

George Bush when all is said and done is a smiling veneer to the corporations he represents... The guy was alleged to be a regular cocaine user, I mean not that I don't approve of his funding South American economies, but just doesn't seem like the moral paradigms of a truly righteous and honourable man.

There are positives to the war however, Saddam Hussain's removal as leader was welcomed by the people of Iraq, I mean... they had to make him a cake on his birthday (no shit, everyone did... how fucked up is that) but that's totally not the point... oh yeah, However, an occupying army will not be welcomed for long, and the people of iraq are already tired of it's presence, American and British troops are being killed by the dozen right now. - People concern themselves with the repercussions to the countries' leaders however, we should be more concerned with the plight of our people out there under threat.

Noone will likely read this post because it is long and boring... but yeah.

okay I need a lie down now.

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#4826 - 08/27/03 12:29 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Gollum Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 207
Loc: US
you make some good points. but i do disagree on a few things. first: i don't really think we like iran too much. the way i see it, after iraq, it's gonna be syria then iran. no matter how you look at it, these countries are still funding terrorism, so yeah. second: you make it sound like the world was wrong to stop iraq from invading kuwait. remember what happened when the world turned away to hitler invading the czech? third: the majority of the iraqi ppl still want the americans there. around 3/4. while it's not a lot, it's better than what some ppl want you to think. the iraqi ppl know that if the americans leave, another saddam is just gonna stroll in again. and if it's between that and the americans, they choose the americans. and fourth: ppl aren't dying by the dozens. from all the allied countries fighting, there is an average of 2 people per day. that's an average since the beginning of the war. 328 people, by roughly 159 days. do you want me to compare this to other wars? such as ww2, where 500,000 americans (just americans) were killed. it comes to roughly 400 americans per day. 1942-1945, 500,000/3*365. anyway, that's f'now.//
_________________________
Unbodied unsouled unheard unseen
Let the gift be grown in the time to call our own
Truth is natural like a wind that blows
Follow the direction no matter where it goes
Let the truth blow like a hurricane through me

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#4827 - 08/27/03 09:41 PM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
HitYouth Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 8
I wasn't suggesting (or i didn't mean it to appear) that we were wrong to invade Iraq (the first time), I was implying that the motives for the 'liberation of Kuwait' were not as clear cut and morally just as the government would have had us believe.

This was apparent when, the end of the iraqi (is that how you spell it??) occupation of Kuwait indicated a restoration of the political status-quo. Bush ("Read my lips" senior) having encouraged the people of Iraq to rise up against Saddam, pulled Allied Forces out allowing him [Saddam] to slaughter all of his perceived opponents. We stood idly by as he gassed thousands (and this time I do mean thousands) of Kurds. Where were we then as a peacekeeping humanitarian force?

I do agree though in so far as in terms of human casualties, this war pales into insignificance with regard to comparative body count. However, as for the number of Americans dying, how many is enough? In my opinion, a proud military with a great sense of tradition and honour is being betrayed by it's government for the sake of oil, not justice.

Do you think Bush loses sleep over those two American sons who are never coming home again to their families?

Essentially my point relates not to the moral standing and outlook of your average American, more the core motivation of your average former coke addict commander in chief. I personally cannot get in support of a man who is already buoyed and influenced by an 'army' of corporations. (was going to write 'cannot get behind a man who...' yeah that didn't work for me)

This rant isn't necessarily whining that Bush is a particularly bad example of a president, it is suggesting that the apparent moral decay found within his administration is inherent in most modern political figures due to the nature of modern politics.

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#4828 - 08/28/03 04:29 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Gollum Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 207
Loc: US
" (was going to write 'cannot get behind a man who...' yeah that didn't work for me)" - lol

i'd have to say, the majority of ppl over there giving their lives, believe this is a just war. let's assume for a minute here that the ONLY reason for this war is oil, and for profit. in my eyes, the ending of saddam's dictatorship, the freeing of the iraqi ppl, and another step towards ending large (country funded) terrorist groups is more than just. now i know the terrorist part of this is a bit hazy. bringing down saddam could possibly make things worse. but its like getting a hook stuck in your flesh. you have to push it through to get it out. i dunno, that's just what i think. and as far as corruption in politics. yeah...what else is new, lol. but at least if you look at this in the long run. the ends will justify the means. assuming all goes to plan.//
_________________________
Unbodied unsouled unheard unseen
Let the gift be grown in the time to call our own
Truth is natural like a wind that blows
Follow the direction no matter where it goes
Let the truth blow like a hurricane through me

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#4829 - 11/08/03 03:19 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Disgruntled Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 181
Loc: Limbo
in reply to Gollum's statement about bush.

I totally agree with "Fleshwound".
If Iwere you "Gollum" I would wake up b\4 it's to late! Any president that tells his\her people that they have absolute proof of W.O.M.D, and that they know exactly where they are and then cannot locate even one of them is either been lied to by his\her security people, or he\she is the one who is doing the lying.
Just something to think about.
_________________________
No matter how complex a lock may be. Someone will always find a key.

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#4830 - 11/08/03 03:27 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Disgruntled Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 181
Loc: Limbo
In reply to Fleshwound's comments,

I am glad to finally hear from someone who has their feet on the ground and their eyes wide open to the truth!
Thanks for not buying into all the repulican crap.
_________________________
No matter how complex a lock may be. Someone will always find a key.

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#4831 - 11/08/03 03:52 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Disgruntled Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 181
Loc: Limbo
A general reply.

I'm not against the liberation of oppressed ppl, but that is not why we went to war with iraq.
I am against a president that continually lies to his own ppl. I believe he went to war with iraq for the following reasons:
1. Saddam tried to kill his father. So revenge is part of this reason.
2. If he killed Saddam it would be a large feather in his hat, and go a long way toward getting him re-elected!
3. It does have alot to do with the control of the oil fields. If it didn't, then why were the oil fields the first things repaired,not the hospitals,not the power
stations, but the oil Fields.
Need I go on to show where his thinking is going.
_________________________
No matter how complex a lock may be. Someone will always find a key.

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#4832 - 11/11/03 04:40 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Gollum Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 207
Loc: US
i'd just like to say to your first two reasons he went to war: that's assuming bush can say "let's go to war" and we go to war. congress has to let him go to war as well. i dont' think congress is going to go to war b/c saddam tried to kill GW's father.
and for #3. oil fields are a lot easier to secure than hospitals and power stations, which are located in or near cities/towns. you can use perhaps a few squads of men or women to secure an oil field. however, hospitals in towns take a lot longer. you're not gonna start sending in doctors if the enemy is just gonna start shooting them. yes, it is against the geneva convention, but when has that stopped them (or hitler) b4? you have to make sure the city is safe b4 you do stuff like that. not to mention, oil fires can create havoc for the environment, health issues, and be very dangerous if they get out of hand.
also, look at the current state of iraq. generally, iraq as a nation is doing much much better than it ever was b4.
and as far as womd. i've decided that yes it is important to find them for one reason. just so our government can't go to war for any reason. but...i also believe that the womd aren't there anymore, that they've been moved to syria or iran. i do still believe this was a just war. and that a lot of good did come out of it. the iraqi ppl are beginning to set up their own democratic government etc...
obviously it's not all sunshines and rainbows over there, but it is getting much better. and i think it's getting better quicker than it could have.
i think too many ppl expected iraq to be a changed nation overnight.
also, why must ppl believe that our government is corrupt? and evil? does it fill some sort of void? i may not be a conspiracy theorist, but i also wouldn't trust the government about everything. i guess most of it is all just a POV. you're three comments there are not based on fact...but just observations and reasoning. but most of my reply was the same, with a few exceptions. i just reasoned it a different way. i have no reason to think that GW is an evil man, or that he wants our government to control the world. how can i judge his character by actions that unless i wnat to think otherwise, and assume he's a bad person, have some validity.

perhaps i'm just an optomist. but fromw hat i've seen, most of what's happening is good. but how can you make an arguments based on your judgements about what he wants without any fact to back it up? on the other hand, if you do have facts to back it up, i'd be more than happy to hear them...i'm a very open person (purely non-sexual of course...i mean, i've been curiuos but...ahh, wait, getting OT here. =P) anyway, to sum it up...i see or hear good in what he's done, therefore i can say "hey, he's done good from what i've heard" obviously i don't KNOW, but i have some sort of evidence to back me up. lots of other ppl theorize that bad things happen and they say "hey, he did bad things and screwed up...he's a bad person" and they say it whether or not they KNOW or have heard anything. and i've seen that some ppl flat out lie about what they've heard to make him sound bad. i'll stop here otherwise i'd just keep writing about nothing, lol.
anyway, i wanted to just write up a quick reply, but got carried away. lol //
_________________________
Unbodied unsouled unheard unseen
Let the gift be grown in the time to call our own
Truth is natural like a wind that blows
Follow the direction no matter where it goes
Let the truth blow like a hurricane through me

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#4833 - 11/11/03 05:27 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
The Iraqi people aren't setting up a democratic government. We're setting up a democratic government. The problems in Iraq go back a hundred years, after the fall of the Ottoman empire, when the middle east was simply partitioned by the major European nations. You've got people who've hated each other for centuries, and are unable to get past their differences, living in the same country, under the same government. Democracy and capitalism have worked well in America, but who's to say that's what would work in Iraq? You can't reasonable expect the arabs, persians, and kurds to put together a functioning government, or even work together under a government we establish.

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#4834 - 11/11/03 07:44 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Disgruntled Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 181
Loc: Limbo
In reply to Gollum,

Youv'e made me change my thinking alittle on the 3rd reason. I still believe one of the major points for us going to war was the oil.

Thanks for the reply.
_________________________
No matter how complex a lock may be. Someone will always find a key.

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#4835 - 11/11/03 07:47 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Disgruntled Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 181
Loc: Limbo
I agree with you on your comments Pergesu.
_________________________
No matter how complex a lock may be. Someone will always find a key.

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#4836 - 11/16/03 06:26 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
truthspreader Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/10/03
Posts: 26
Loc: dc
Fuck Governor Bush and the rest of the imperialist Junta too.
_________________________
"The constitutional republic is a dictatorship of our collective exploiters, the social democratic red republic is a dictatorship of their former allies."
-Karl Marx

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#4837 - 11/19/03 02:52 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Disgruntled Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 181
Loc: Limbo
If what I read about him at the following addresses is true, then you don,t want to know what I think!!!

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29990

http://www.infowars.com/print/misc/dead.htm

You guys & gals draw your own conclusions!
_________________________
No matter how complex a lock may be. Someone will always find a key.

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#4838 - 11/20/03 12:35 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
ok, i realize that he may not be that great of a president. but a rapist? i doubt it. i read those articles you posted. and the woman seemed completely insane. she seemed to have paranoid schizophrenia to be quite honest. but at any rate... i don't believe that for a minute. like i said, he may not be a great leader, but that surely does not make him a rapist.
_________________________
"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#4839 - 11/20/03 06:05 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
truthspreader Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/10/03
Posts: 26
Loc: dc
Whatever, i too don't by into him raping that woman. But he still sucks. He is a rapist of the environment. And of the Iraqi people.
_________________________
"The constitutional republic is a dictatorship of our collective exploiters, the social democratic red republic is a dictatorship of their former allies."
-Karl Marx

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#4840 - 11/20/03 07:21 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Disgruntled Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 181
Loc: Limbo
Remember I said "If what I read was true". I don't know if it's true. I also said draw your own conclusions, which you did. I have no problem with that. As far as her being crazy goes, how do we know that they didn't drive her insane by constantly harassing her and her family to drop the case.
_________________________
No matter how complex a lock may be. Someone will always find a key.

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#4841 - 11/22/03 04:02 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
truthspreader Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/10/03
Posts: 26
Loc: dc
That is another possibility too.
_________________________
"The constitutional republic is a dictatorship of our collective exploiters, the social democratic red republic is a dictatorship of their former allies."
-Karl Marx

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#4842 - 11/22/03 04:20 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
ehh... i'll buy the "bush snorting coke off a stripper's ass" story. that one i could see. but i this just isn't his style. may be a shitty president.. but not a rapist. that is just ridiculous.
_________________________
"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#4843 - 11/22/03 11:19 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Disgruntled Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 181
Loc: Limbo
Gees Fleshwound I didn't even know about the coke & the stripper. But I find it strange that you would believe in the one incident, but not the other.
Like I said I don't know if it's even true, but he's already shown the american people that he's power hungry. He has also shown that he has no regard for american soldiers lives, by taunting the enemy saying bring it on. The reason I say this is because rape isn't about sex, it's about power and exerting ones will over another person. If anyone ever fit that profile to a "T" he does. That's just my opinion, I might be wrong.
_________________________
No matter how complex a lock may be. Someone will always find a key.

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#4844 - 11/23/03 12:25 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
hey.. he went to Harvard. of course he probably dabbled in the drug scene. most people have at some point or another. so yeah.. i believe he did coke.

but it's a giant leap from snorting coke a few times to raping a girl.

i agree, he is power hungry. but the power he seeks is more than just power over a woman for a few minutes. that kind of power wouldn't satisfy him at all. he hungers for power just like another man in history i could mention. *cough cough..ermm think WWII, think Germany*
and yeah.. i don't know if it's true or not. no one knows except for him and that girl. but in my opinion from what i've read and from what i know about Bush... he didn't do it.
_________________________
"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#4845 - 11/23/03 12:42 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Disgruntled Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 181
Loc: Limbo
Let's hope your right Fleshwound.
_________________________
No matter how complex a lock may be. Someone will always find a key.

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#4846 - 12/15/03 04:32 AM Re: What do you think of Bush now?
Red Mage Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/03
Posts: 209
Loc: here.
Laff.. Bush the Rapist.. I don't like Bush, but he's not that stupid!
The issue I'd like to talk about is the American flags and such that fleshy and perg talked about. You don't have to support Bush or the war to support America. I think America is slowly (getting faster during the shrub's term) going to hell, but it's still better than many other countries. At least we have the right to make fun of our dumbass president. Bush is the type of person who believes something, and refuses to listen to anything else (He won't even read the newspaper). Some people think that this is good, but I think it's extremely stupid. Do we really want a president who doesn't know what's going on in his own country? He also tried to convince the American people that there is a connection between Saddam and 9-11. STUPID PEOPLE! BIN LADEN WAS BEHIND 9-11!! Anyway, that's my spiel.
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Those who say do not know.
Those who know do not say.

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