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#5180 - 05/09/03 02:42 AM Desktop Wars (Linux vs Windows)
jonconley Offline
UGN Super Poster

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 955
Loc: Merrill, IA, USA
As it looks now, according to the reports these things are true
1] Linux growth vs Microsoft growth in the server market is greater
2] People are leaving Unix/MS development, to develop for Linux. .NET is not being embraced as MS has wished. Many people are excited about Project Mono and are using alternative technologies to .NEt

So Microsoft isn't doing very well in getting developers or the server market. Will have to wait to see how Server 2003 performs, I assume MS will take a large leap in growth with it. So this topic is about how would Linux convince the average desktop user to switch from MS. Desktop users will not be generally concerned about security, stability, reliability, or opensource.

So what does Linux need to change/improve to convince the average user to use linux rather than MS? Is it even possible? What mistakes have they done so far?

/me sips on some coffee and whispers, "Talk amongst yourselves"

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#5181 - 05/09/03 02:51 AM Re: Desktop Wars (Linux vs Windows)
jonconley Offline
UGN Super Poster

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 955
Loc: Merrill, IA, USA
I will start this off with a few things

CONS for linux:
1] Some distros *cough*redhat*cough*, don't even come with MP3 support. This will never fly. Come on. Addin support for OGG,MP3,APC, etc.
2] I don't think users will be generally concerned with size of installation so, install as much "dependence-wise" by default so people don't have to solve multiple dependencies.
3] A good package manager. Similar to what I have recently heard about with Ports/APT/Click-N-Run. These could even be subscription based like what RedHat does or Lindows. Its just sad that the i-face for some distros are sad. We need a GUI for the package manager. Better descriptions/screenshots etc, like Click-N-Run.
4] ONLY one desktop environment. Pick one and stick with it. Works much better this way. Atleast for the default install. This makes it easier for user. They don't need a different GDE unless they know enough to install it themselves, etc. Just trouble otherwise.

PROS for linux:
1] MPlayer is beautiful. Not GUI wise, but will a simple install I can play MPG/WMV/AVI/RM/OGG etc. This is very nice, windows has yet to have a single good video player that can play such an array of formats effectively and with such ease.

2] Package managers already allow you to (sometimes with a few modifications), type a single command or click a single button and have ALL software (even if not installed with OS) to be updated to the most recent version. Windows doesn't have a unified upgrade/update manager such as this.
Unfortunately that is the only PRO that comes to mind

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#5182 - 05/09/03 02:57 AM Re: Desktop Wars (Linux vs Windows)
SilentRage Offline
DollarDNS Owner

Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 1273
Loc: OH, USA
It's quite possible. Look at MAC OS X. It's unix based and yet, hugely popular. So it IS possible to make linux popular. Lindows I feel is on the right track. One reason I think it isn't doing as well as OS X is that MAC is already had a large user base which largely switched to the new OS. A second thing I think holds Lindows back is the lack of advertising. I feel that if a linux flavor was released that emphasized the environment over the architecture (stuff like Gnome and X Windows don't do this enough) and had huge backing and support and advertising, it can do very well.
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#5183 - 05/09/03 05:54 AM Re: Desktop Wars (Linux vs Windows)
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
I think linux's biggest problem is that there's no single vendor for it. It's one of its strengths, being open source and easily modifiable, but the lack of a single major distro is a limiting factor for the average user. Also, I think it's still a bit too finicky for regular people. As much as I like linux on the desktop, the user interface isn't always intuitive enough and there are a lot of glitches in most of the software. Nothin even major, just small annoyances. Of course you can't demand too much from free software, but that's a mentality that most PC users have. You can't expect the machine to run perfectly smoothly. That's where Apple has really succeeded with OS X. First off, the interface is simply beautiful. Aqua, the windowing system, and the Quartz toolkit for windows is simply stunning. I truly have not seen a better looking interface. With software, it all runs great. Even the vast majority of open source stuff is free of the little glitches. Any commercial software can easily be had with this little program that has serials for all software No porn banners or anything. But really, the main thing is the interface and the bundled software. iLife, which consists of iTunes (one of the greatest apps I've ever seen), iMovie, and iPhoto, is an incredibly multimedia suite. And then Quicktime, which is really nothing like the windows port, plays all video formats except for WMV. But there's a native WMP for OS X, so that takes care of that. This is all bundled with the OS, nothing to buy. Another thing I want to point out is how linux takes so long to configure stuff. You know that crap you see on Mac commercials about how Macs "just work?" I didn't buy into it until I used one, and it's true.

I should stop, because I intended for this post to actually add to this. I think I may have come across as an Apple zealot towards the end. Still, I'd like to reiterate my main points. Linux's interface still isn't good enough for main stream users, there's a lot of glitchy software, it's too difficult to configure, and the bundled software isn't good enough quality. I don't know about Longhorn at all, but from what I've read, it seems like it's a step in the right direction. Though how often has Microsoft fallen short on their products?

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#5184 - 05/09/03 06:55 AM Re: Desktop Wars (Linux vs Windows)
§intå× Offline


*****

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 3255
Loc: Maryland
Enter

http://www.unitedlinux.com/

A multi vendor front to sell Linux to the buissness world. Once your corperate types are using it at work they start at home. Then the little guys says hey... I better learn that. And so on.

Some of the back lash from windows XP is still hurting M$. One of my Co workers found out just this week every time he changes out hardware he has to call MS and re-do the whole product key shit. He was over at my desk asking about Linux. He said "That was it for me man. I enjoy adding to my computer, now I have to call every time?"

I offered him a few mandrake CD's. As he looked both ways and started to hide them, I explained it is leagle to burn Linux and give it out. Gave him a few sites. Now he is excited about this new OS.

Linux's down fall to me is simpley this. Linux is in fact a clone of a over 20 year old OS. Where there has been some inovation added, M$ is truely evolving something all new(Well kinda).

I think if a strong enough GUI was developed that allowed users to not have to hit the command line Windows could easily be toast. But as is now when you want to install anything of size you mostly have to compile it using make, config, and all that jaz.

The masses want a smart computer to do all that for them. This is Microsofts strong point. We are geeks. We want to know the nuts and bolts. Johny home owner dosen't. He wants a prety GUI that allows him to do "nifty" things with ease.

Many just want to be able to do the same things at home they can do at work. (I am telling you the work place is key!!) Many just want a place to play around. You can do all this in any OS, but windows makes it easier.

Many hate RedHat, Mandrake, Lindows etc etc etc. But they are on the right track to getting Linux accepted by the masses.

I have high hope for United Linux. By the way, Did you know with a little work Windows could be dubed a UNIX OS? DOD required a OS be POSIX compliant before they use it. M$ wants that box checked of course soooo NTFS systems are POSIX compliant. Not sure about home OS's

What I am most intrested in recently in M$'s press is they are saying BSD is Good, while Linux is bad for buisness. Anyone following this?
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#5185 - 05/09/03 07:07 AM Re: Desktop Wars (Linux vs Windows)
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
Quote:
Originally posted by in_tax:
The masses want a smart computer to do all that for them. This is Microsofts strong point. We are geeks. We want to know the nuts and bolts. Johny home owner dosen't. He wants a prety GUI that allows him to do "nifty" things with ease.
That's what OS X is, with the pretty GUI you mentioned earlier. You can do everything via the interface, or you can get into the gritty details. And because of Fink , a really nice package system, you can get all kinds of Unix and BSD tools. It's a package system and handles all dependencies, will download and install whatever packages you need. Apple really has developed the best OS so far, and if they can break into the corporate market, then Microsoft would for sure be toast.

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#5186 - 05/09/03 08:59 PM Re: Desktop Wars (Linux vs Windows)
dashocker Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 524
Loc: Cornfields everywhere...
Christ perg, I want to run out and buy a MAC OS X comp. right now! Why did you have to be so convincing? The problem is the price, though. I just looked at the lowest priced eMac and its $799 for 128 MB of SDRAM and an 800 mhz processor? Thats pretty damn pricey when compared to Windows PCs. What ya got to say about that?

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#5187 - 05/10/03 02:22 AM Re: Desktop Wars (Linux vs Windows)
Infinite Offline



Registered: 03/09/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: Canada eh
Linux vs windows (vs OSX) for the desktop eh? Well after listening to perg for the last ~month, I think OSX is the greatest thing since slice bread, and I would never use anything else again. Now all I need is an Apple computer with OSX on it so I can see it for myself

OK, so I know nothing about OSX. Heard great things, can't comment till I use it for myself. So that aside, we come back to linux and windows.

joncon
Quote:
CONS for linux:
1] Some distros *cough*redhat*cough*, don't even come with MP3 support. This will never fly. Come on. Addin support for OGG,MP3,APC, etc.
Yeah, some legal crap and mp3 support was left out. While it is an easy fix to run over to the XMMS site where all over the front page this issue is mentioned (or was, site is in transition), these are exactly the kinds of things that will hinder linux from becoming a mainstream desktop OS.

pergesu
Quote:
I think linux's biggest problem is that there's no single vendor for it
As far as development goes I think this is a good thing. Some of the distro's out there are radically better than others, and this is a product of having different types of people working on linux. As well, which distro is the best is relative to the person using it.

in_tax Oh great, so a bunch of companies that already produce their own individual Linux flavours get together to put out yet another? This confuses me, and unless they get more of the major distro's (ie. redhat, slackware, debian) onboard this will only ever be 'just another distro'. Granted the idea sounds good, but I seriously doubt this project will amount to what it intends to be.

joncon
Quote:
2] Package managers already allow you to (sometimes with a few modifications), type a single command or click a single button and have ALL software (even if not installed with OS) to be updated to the most recent version. Windows doesn't have a unified upgrade/update manager such as this.
Unfortunately that is the only PRO that comes to mind
Package managers are a concept that is not really needed in windows style environments. Windows is an OS that is, for all intents and purposes, an all-in-one OS. It includes support for a plethora of devices, protocols, software, and just about anything else you need in a windows environment. This is not the case in *nix as a whole. Linux is a very modular OS. Just about anything can be added or taken away, including parts that make up core itself (kernel modules). For instance, the other day when I compiled and installed gnome from source, 131 seperate packages were reqired. If this was a windows program you'd double click the setup.exe and away you go.

This modular aspect of linux is why it will never become a mainstream OS. Linux promises (and arguably delivers) an OS that is 100% customizable, that allows access to the how's and why's of it's innner workings, and that offers a completely different way of thinking about computing.

Therein lies the problem.

Computers in general still baffle and confuse the majority of the population. Sure us computer geeks find this kind of thing trivial, but do you remember when you were trying to teach your mom to use email? People do not want choice or flexibility or customizable environment or control or whatever else applies to this topic. They want something that works without them having to give a damn, and they wan it to go on working. If it breaks, they want people like us to come fix it in the next ten minutes or their whole morning is shot.

This is what windows gives them.

Now I know windows doesn't always 'just work', in fact compared to *nix you could say it never works the way it's supposed to. BUT, you can install it in 30 minutes, and have a near completely functioning desktop OS, that people like my mom and yours can grasp the basic use of. You move this little mousy pointer thing over to that little pictuse and click twice really fast. Perfect :p

Quote:
Many hate RedHat, Mandrake, Lindows etc etc etc. But they are on the right track to getting Linux accepted by the masses.
I couldn't disagree more. This is exactly the thing that really irks me about all this; how a lot of the major linux distro's are trying to get into the desktop market. Let's take RedHat for example here. I liked RedHat. It was the distro I started with, and used for close to two years. It works reasonably well, and still offers the benefits (and pitfalls) of *nix. BUT.... There is so much uneeded crap included in RedHat, that it is as bad as Windows is for ramming their shite down your throat. RedHat 8.0 took three cd's to install. 3 FRIGGIN CD'S!!! Holy crap. And from what I gather, mandrake is no better. Distro's like these are following the MS example and trying to be a lot more than what they should be. But this goes back to the original problem; this is what people want.

So what's worse here? The Windows we know as a desktop, or a couple of Linus distro's doing enerything in their power to emulate Windows???

I say both are the shits.

So where does that leave us? Well it leaves me with my WinXP desktop on my main puter, Obsd on my "server" machine, and my shiny new Gentoo linux install on my laptop (it is a dul boot with XP, but it has only been in XP long enough to install it) But where this really leaves me is waiting for a linux distro that can be evertyhing a desktop OS needs to be, and wishing there was a better alternative to windows.

Infinite

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#5188 - 05/10/03 02:42 AM Re: Desktop Wars (Linux vs Windows)
jonconley Offline
UGN Super Poster

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 955
Loc: Merrill, IA, USA
For package management I would partially agree with windows not needed it as in a single software application can have multiple packages, however.

1] Windows doesn't have a unified way to update all software at once
2] Windows does even have a unified way to add/remove software. Sad, but how many times have you installed something and its not even listed in the uninstall add/remove programs option in windows. Using XandrOS (very userfriendly), I updated software, searched/found new software/ and easily removed ANY software I installed. All with a few clicks.

I agree with your redhat statement also. So many picviewers, IDEs, textviewers, etc. Its a mess. I think a distro needs to further identify itself and creating a larger difference by embracing one GDE and at MOST, one or two applications per purpose.

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#5189 - 05/11/03 06:45 AM Re: Desktop Wars (Linux vs Windows)
§intå× Offline


*****

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 3255
Loc: Maryland
Infinite

Quote:
in_tax
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enter

http://www.unitedlinux.com/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh great, so a bunch of companies that already produce their own individual Linux flavours get together to put out yet another? This confuses me, and unless they get more of the major distro's (ie. redhat, slackware, debian) onboard this will only ever be 'just another distro'. Granted the idea sounds good, but I seriously doubt this project will amount to what it intends to be.
I realy think it has a chance

Partners

Conectiva ..... http://www.conectiva.com/

The SCO Group ..... http://www.sco.com/

SuSE Linux AG ..... http://www.suse.de/en/

Turbolinux Inc. ..... http://www.turbolinux.com


Now these aren't the most major players on the field, SuSE and Turbolinux are big enough. Then you have the Tech partners.

AMD ..... http://www.amd.com/

HP ..... http://www.hp.com/linux

IBM ..... http://www-1.ibm.com/linux/UnitedLinux-Application-Brief.pdf
... ..... http://www-1.ibm.com/linux/?S_TACT=lnxatibm&S_CMP=d2w&S_PKG=ul&ca=lnxatibm&me=u


The FAQ's
http://www.unitedlinux.com/en/info/faqs.html


The Distros still have thier own distros. But this is a standard among Linux distros to offer a enterprise office solution. It realy just might work here.

HP and IBM have money to sink into a marketing venture. A standar would be good to offer a major company.


Like I said, you get in the office.... People want the same thing at home.
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#5190 - 05/15/03 12:19 PM Re: Desktop Wars (Linux vs Windows)
Infinite Offline



Registered: 03/09/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: Canada eh
You're taking this off-topic Learner :p . We can argue about United linux in another thread, that's not what this one is for.

http://www.undergroundnews.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000097;p=1#000000

Infinite

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#5191 - 05/16/03 12:26 AM Re: Desktop Wars (Linux vs Windows)
§intå× Offline


*****

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 3255
Loc: Maryland
/me smacks own hand with a ruler.

sorry

I have been reading up on Steve Jobs and the iPOD and iTunes. I think he just might get some market shares in the home market. The iPod can be used on a windows platform but compared the the OSX it supposedly sucks. (Accident I am sure :/)

With iTunes doing as well as it is. The music industry standing behind it he might end up getting a big marketing push here. If the future of downloadable music is siting in apples lap they could hold a few aces.

I am having to learn the whole windows server platform for a job. I am not real familar with it as of yet but have found I do like some of the features in the .NET frame work. Not sure where J# sits though?

Linux is fastly becoming a decent OS. The price is right, but with recent events I was unaware of earlier there is a risk. So maybe M$ is right. BSD is the cheap but not free solution to Linux?

Thoughts?
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My New site OpenEyes

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#5192 - 05/16/03 02:57 AM Re: Desktop Wars (Linux vs Windows)
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
Okay, for all you people that haven't been listening...

OS X IS THE SOLUTION TO THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS

I'm not even in the least bit kidding

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#5193 - 05/16/03 11:51 AM Re: Desktop Wars (Linux vs Windows)
Infinite Offline



Registered: 03/09/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: Canada eh
This is a Linux vs Windows thread pergesu. Take your perverted ways and get them the hell out of here :p

Infinite

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