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#5682 - 05/10/03 01:32 AM Under God - Out or In
Drake Offline
UGN Member

Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 129
Loc: Long Beach, California
what do you guys think about taking "Under God" out of the pledge. i've always abstained from saying it myself, even when I was Christian, because I believe in seperation of church and state. Plus, the only reason it was put it (in the mid 1950's i think) was cause our government was trying to keep us from sharing views with the soviet union. one repetion every time we went to school, went to a rodeo, or any place where the pledge was said. I wonder what Bernard Marx would have to say to that.
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#5683 - 05/10/03 01:47 AM Re: Under God - Out or In
jonconley Offline
UGN Super Poster

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 955
Loc: Merrill, IA, USA
remove every reference to god in any government oath, our currency, our government documents, etc. I don't care if people love their Christian god or not. We already got a fucking preacher president pretty much delivering a sermon and quoting the bible. I don't remember his name being Rev. G. Bush. Seriously, keep your god out of it and do your job. Same thing with anything else, god doesn't reflect values. Individuals do, so you can still have a value system and not have a god, and the government claims that is why god is referred to in the documents, etc.

And me personally, I don't like any religions. But I have seen people offended and ostracized b/c they done recite the pledge, join along in a prayer at a public place, etc. Religion in government doesn't promote unity and tolerance, it creates divisions and a self-promoting supremacy.

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#5684 - 05/10/03 03:47 PM Re: Under God - Out or In
ObiWan Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Mountains of Washington (NOT D...
While we do separate church and state (kind of) if a person runs for President who is atheist, I can guarantee that person will not be elected. The majority of the people in the United States hold some kind of religion or greater order hence; they want a leader who also reflects those principals.

Since this country was originally founded by the religiously persecuted it is unlikely that those words will ever be removed.
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#5685 - 05/10/03 05:19 PM Re: Under God - Out or In
SilentRage Offline
DollarDNS Owner

Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 1273
Loc: OH, USA
I think it's a nitty gritty point. I don't see that it matters one way or another. Saying 'under god' in the pledge isn't going to create a union between government and religion. Neither is removing it a sure fire way to prevent it. It's words, it's not even a statement of loyalty TO god. If people are so GOD sensitive that they get annoyed just by seeing/hearing/saying the word they can shove it up their anal behinds.

I don't like fanatical/strongly-biased/stubborn thinking. Neither for nor against... anything
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#5686 - 05/10/03 05:46 PM Re: Under God - Out or In
ObiWan Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Mountains of Washington (NOT D...
Quote:
I think it's a nitty gritty point. I don't see that it matters one way or another. Saying 'under god' in the pledge isn't going to create a union between government and religion. Neither is removing it a sure fire way to prevent it. It's words, it's not even a statement of loyalty TO god. If people are so GOD sensitive that they get annoyed just by seeing/hearing/saying the word they can shove it up their anal behinds.
Good point.
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#5687 - 05/10/03 09:22 PM Re: Under God - Out or In
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
I hold the same/similar view to SR on this point, that extremism either way, on anything, is never good. Frankly, I don't care about this issue at all, really. People who get all pissy about saying two words in the pledge of allegiance are just looking for something to piss and moan about regarding the government. People who would get all worked up about the words being removed would need to chill out too. Because it really doesn't matter at all. About Bush being something of a preacher, well some people may not like it, but he's an American citizen as well, and he has every right to say what he wants. Personally, I don't care either way about whether he discusses god or not. The President's views don't dictate a person's views, and I don't remember him ever telling the country to be Christian or have a god. In addition, I think people should understand the intent rather than the delivery. It should be comforting to think that our President thinks of the country as being under the protection of something he has total faith in. The fact that it's a god doesn't matter, but what does matter is that he associates our country with the subject of his utmost faith. I think that says something about anyone who does that.

The government would never remove all references to God anyway. How much money would it take? I don't know, but probably in the hundreds of billions to trillions range. All to remove one word or phrase? Never gonna happen

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#5688 - 05/10/03 09:38 PM Re: Under God - Out or In
Cold Sunn Offline
UGN GFX Whore

Registered: 03/03/02
Posts: 574
Loc: us
I don't believe or disbelieve in God, and I don't have a problem saying "under God." If you believe in any God, then it makes sense. If you don't believe in any God at all, then don't worry about it. It makes more sense to keep it (to me) since the majority of people believe in a God. We aren't going to change the way things are just to make happy a group of people about an issue that doesn't matter. It's not like they want their freedom. Stupid America, liberating Iraq. What a dumbass idea, those Iraqi's loved Saddam. The polls prove it. Oh wait, i'm off topic.

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#5689 - 05/11/03 09:55 PM Re: Under God - Out or In
Drake Offline
UGN Member

Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 129
Loc: Long Beach, California
It's a social pressure pushing you to accept a religion you don't want to have to accept. and i agree with perg on the bush/preacher thing. people knew his relegious views when they elected him. what'd they think, that he was just gonna forget them?
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#5690 - 05/13/03 01:39 PM Re: Under God - Out or In
hKzKnight Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 626
Loc: LAN
Well religion was at one point deeply tied to government/politics... Religion was also designed for health purpose and control (in the past).
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#5691 - 05/16/03 12:34 PM Re: Under God - Out or In
dashocker Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 524
Loc: Cornfields everywhere...
I agree with perg and SR that extremeism either way isn't good. But it has to go. It says so in the Constitution, it doesen't matter you think. Any mention of any religion, as JC said, should be gone from anything related to government. It's law, plain and simple. And yes, the "under God" part was added by Eisenhower, it's not part of the original poem. So I don't see what the big deal is anyway. Of course, Rev. Bush would disagree. And another thing, what makes you guys so insensitive to other religions? I believe it is a branch of Christianity(Johova's Witness?) which takes the most offense to the "under God" statement anyway. At school, we were forced to recite the pledge after 9-11. A kid of the aforementioned faith was forced to stand and face the flag, even if it was against his religion to do so(also un-Constitutional according to a Supreme Court decision). BTW, I think God was added to most government documents to make those who signed them keep their oath. Why do you have to swear to tell the truth with your hand on a Bible in court? And Drake, were you referring to Karl Marx in your post or am I just unfamiliar with Bernard?

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#5692 - 05/16/03 04:58 PM Re: Under God - Out or In
Drake Offline
UGN Member

Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 129
Loc: Long Beach, California
Bernard Marx is a character of a book called A Brave New World. I can't remember who it's by off the top of my head. It's a futuristic world wehre the population is mass produced on an assembly line by artificial insemination. while the embryos are growing they're subjected to physical exercises to make their bodies fit the role assigned to them in life. once they're born, they're brainwashed to believe adn want the things teh world-controllers want them to believe. Part of this is done with repetition. Bernard Marx is a kind of pyschiatrist who's embryo got screwed up so he's physically stunted in a palce wehre everybody else is physically the same. He constantly points out every time somebody says a phrase they got from the brainwashing. The entire book is crazy.
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The lover of inquiry must follow his beloved wherever it may lead him.
-Socrates

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#5693 - 05/18/03 09:03 PM Re: Under God - Out or In
BackSlash Offline
UGN's Resident Homo

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 599
Loc: TN
brave new world is by Aldous Huxley.... his fordship, lol
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#5694 - 05/18/03 10:08 PM Re: Under God - Out or In
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
No no no, he's not physically stunted where everybody else is the same. There are different classes of people. He's an epsilon, which is the lowest class, the trash of the world really. The top three classes (I forget what they are, but I imagine they're alphas, beta, and gamma) are produced for specific reasons, and the lowest classes (deltas and epsilons) are the genetic defects, the throwbacks.

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#5695 - 05/20/03 12:48 AM Re: Under God - Out or In
Drake Offline
UGN Member

Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 129
Loc: Long Beach, California
he's an alpha plus. the top of the class. the cream of the world, really. he's physicaly stunted to the level of a beta. so he's self-conscios casue he looks like an inferior even though he's not.
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The lover of inquiry must follow his beloved wherever it may lead him.
-Socrates

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#5696 - 05/20/03 07:09 PM Re: Under God - Out or In
jonconley Offline
UGN Super Poster

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 955
Loc: Merrill, IA, USA
Also, about bush, I sounded kind of harsh, as I always do at first. I do not mind if he as a person decides to include this or that from the bible. He is acting as our president, so when addressing the nation as so or when involved in any type of policy-making, he should refrain. My personal belief. The main reason it angers me so much is a few reasons.

It creates divisionism in an already divided country, divided by religion, in a war that involves two distinct sets of religious beliefs. Not a good idea, its just bad politics.

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