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#5712 - 11/17/03 11:41 PM Re: Under God - Out or In
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
i never really minded saying "under god", probably because when i was 6 years old i didn't what the fuck i was even saying. my point there is, that it doesn't affect children that much. it doesn't push anything on them. i had to say the pledge all through grade school. did that turn me into a bible beating god loving freak? no. i don't believe in any organized religions and not sure if i even believe in a god. all i'm saying there is that it really doesn't pervert children's minds because they really don't understand the words they're saying.
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#5713 - 11/18/03 03:26 AM Re: Under God - Out or In
Disgruntled Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 181
Loc: Limbo
In Reply to Icemyst,

Glad to see I'm not the only who can see the truth.
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#5714 - 11/18/03 03:32 AM Re: Under God - Out or In
Disgruntled Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 181
Loc: Limbo
In reply to Fleshwound,

I partly agree with you, children don't understand the beliefs behind the words their being taught, but in time they will understand. When this time comes it's usually to late for them to form their own opinions, because they have been brainwashed into believeing what the majority thinks.
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#5715 - 11/18/03 09:59 AM Re: Under God - Out or In
truthspreader Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/10/03
Posts: 26
Loc: dc
Well said Icemyst.
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"The constitutional republic is a dictatorship of our collective exploiters, the social democratic red republic is a dictatorship of their former allies."
-Karl Marx

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#5716 - 11/18/03 10:40 AM Re: Under God - Out or In
IceMyst Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1449
Loc: Where ever Gizmo is
fleshwood it's the fact that when i got into high school i understood it quite well and at the time i did NOT believe there was a God or any other higher form yet i was still forced to say a line i didn't agree with. got to the point were i refused to stand for the pledge or say it. is it really fair to have a child, and when i say child i mean any one under the age of 18, say something they don't believe in. i have friends who are extremly celtic and dont believe in the God that is said on our money and in the pledge. so why should they have to say pledge their alegence under a God that they do not beleive in and for note i do now beleive in God but i have a problem when people force their religion on me.

and i agree with Disgruntled with the brainwashing. I grew up in an exremly Catholic family. they spent 15 years trying to brainwash me into thinking that if i didn't go to church every sunday that i would burn in hell for eturnity or even better i was be disowned. my fathers family does not talk to me anymore because i'm not the good catholic girl they tried to force me to be.

and another note:
this women who was at the time a lesbian had a baby. the womens girlfriend had not parternal or legal rights to the child but after the two broke up she took the mom to court to sue for joint custidy and was granted it. during the court procedings the mother became a born-again-christian, and as most people know being homosexual is not allowed in the church. well the ex-girlfriend brought that up in court and now the mother is not allowed to in anyway "preach" or speak of God to her little girl. if this mother can't speak of God in her own house then why is it that we still speak of God in schools and in the government. once religion was a privite matter left out of work and school (except most privit schools) but now it's vise versa. it's a tabo to talk of God at home and it's perfictly ok to talk of Him in school and the government proceding regardless if it offends another person of a different faith.

pretty soon all laws and how our government is run will be dictated by the bible. do you really want to see that happen because as much as i do believe in God i do not want him apart of the government or our schools and i speak from the stand point of a non-believer and a believer.
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#5717 - 11/19/03 05:44 AM Re: Under God - Out or In
truthspreader Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/10/03
Posts: 26
Loc: dc
I agree totally with Icemyst. God is a private matter and has no place in public. Once religion dictates society, all that you Americans claim you love will go right down the toilet.
_________________________
"The constitutional republic is a dictatorship of our collective exploiters, the social democratic red republic is a dictatorship of their former allies."
-Karl Marx

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#5718 - 11/20/03 12:28 AM Re: Under God - Out or In
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
i'm not disagreeing. i don't think it really has a place in the public view. it's just that in my school we only said the pledge in gradeschool. that's more what i was referring to. my own personal experience. and i'm just saying that grade school children don't fully understand the meaning of the pledge. true, middle school and high school students definitly will understand. if we were forced to say the pledge in middle and high school there is no way in hell i would have done it. but in grade school, i just did it because that's what we did every morning.

another thing: i agree that the schools shouldn't force a student to say the pledge if they don't want to. but to say that school pushes religion on kids isn't entirely true. they may spread a little propaganda, which is still wrong. but it's the kids' parents that do most of the religion pushing. and most of those parents don't mind if the kid says the pledge. i understand that there are those parents who don't push the issue. that's why there was a huge debate over the pledge in the first place.


i just think that any student should be able to opt out of saying the pledge if they feel like it. i don't think it should be forced on anyone. but if the kids want to say it, let them.
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"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#5719 - 11/20/03 06:20 AM Re: Under God - Out or In
truthspreader Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/10/03
Posts: 26
Loc: dc
I have some friends who had to say it all the way up through high school. It does push religion on kids because they are singled out in not saying the pledge. and in Virginia students have to sit through a "moment of silence" after they say the pledge. You can't possibly say that religion isn't being forced on them.
_________________________
"The constitutional republic is a dictatorship of our collective exploiters, the social democratic red republic is a dictatorship of their former allies."
-Karl Marx

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#5720 - 11/20/03 10:07 AM Re: Under God - Out or In
Disgruntled Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 181
Loc: Limbo
As far as "Under God "even being in there, legal analyst on a news show I was watching "can't remember which one" said that the president that did this broke the law in doing so. He just took it upon himself to put his personal beliefs into the pledge. Knowing that what he did was wrong, you would think that people would be rushing to undo this illegal act. The reason that it's not going happen, is because keeping it in serves the so called religious right and their hand puppets the republicans agenda. Thats how it starts with something small, a couple words in the pledge, next the ten commandments in the courthouses ect. Then one day you wake up and every dicision you make will be scrutinized by the religious thought police. That's just a sample of what I see happening, and what can happen if people don't wake up and think for themselves.
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No matter how complex a lock may be. Someone will always find a key.

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#5721 - 11/20/03 12:01 PM Re: Under God - Out or In
IceMyst Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1449
Loc: Where ever Gizmo is
how can people think for themselves. there's this notion that it's wrong to have your own opinon. to think for yourself is wrong. in high school i was singled out because i refushed to go with what the preppy kids wanted and then oh my i had the nerve to complain about a club which happened to be called "Warriors for Christ". basically an after school bible study class that was held on school grounds. to top it off, if you look in my year book there's 2 pages dedicated to this club. any one else see the problem with that? when i complained 2 of my friends, who are christian, said i was wrong to say anything about that. i still think it's wrong. it's bring religion into the school. oh and did i also mention that every morning in plain view of the school in front of the cafateria the "club" joins hands and forms a circle and prays for about 10 mins before school starts. as i was told pray is not allowed in schools any more. thats the reason most schools can't have the moment of silence anymore because it's concidered prayer.

i love having my own mine and it's amusing how much it pisses people off. i grew up being asked by my family "why can't you just act like the other kids" "why cant you just go to church and cadacism (catholic sunday school)". the reason: i'm not a sheep or cow and i will not be hearded. i'm glad i live in this time because if i was born 100 years ago my need for independence would scare eveyone and cause such a rukis...

what a world this has become were all people fight about is religion and other peoples wars... what a sad thought...
_________________________
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#5722 - 11/22/03 05:04 AM Re: Under God - Out or In
truthspreader Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/10/03
Posts: 26
Loc: dc
That's very true disgruntled and IceMyst. It is getting harder and harder to express free thought. Everywhere you turn it is being suppressed. Like a few months or so ago a kid was suspended for wearing t-shirt that had a picture of Bush on it that said "International Terrorist." What the hell is that about? Kids can't even express their opinions in public schools in America! The place where they are supposed to learn how to be functioning members of a "democracy," they face oppression and restriction.
_________________________
"The constitutional republic is a dictatorship of our collective exploiters, the social democratic red republic is a dictatorship of their former allies."
-Karl Marx

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#5723 - 11/22/03 05:22 AM Re: Under God - Out or In
blackhole Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 2
Loc: united states
I agree with some of everyones veiws on this subject but honestly I dont believe saying the pledge or "under god" made me feel religion is or was being forced upon me, and i dont feel we should waste time or money revising everything that has to do with the government just so "god" is not mentioned.

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#5724 - 11/23/03 12:27 AM Re: Under God - Out or In
fleshwound Offline
Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 536
Loc: CO
well said blackhole!
_________________________
"when you look around, you can't tell me honestly you're happy with what you see"

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#5725 - 11/23/03 04:42 AM Re: Under God - Out or In
Disgruntled Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 181
Loc: Limbo
I don't think we should remove everything pertaining to religion from the public eye. I also don't believe the public should be allowed to exclude other forms of religious thought at the same time. That's the problem we currently have. To many ppl think it's ok to put a couple of words in a pledge here; place a big couple ton ten commandments statue in a courthouse over there ect.. Yet those same ppl will fight tooth and nail if you try to add a jewish prayer to anything. They are also going nuts because some professor wants to teach a course on islamic religious beliefs. But its ok to teach about christian or catholic beliefs at that same college.
_________________________
No matter how complex a lock may be. Someone will always find a key.

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#5726 - 11/23/03 05:30 AM Re: Under God - Out or In
truthspreader Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/10/03
Posts: 26
Loc: dc
Exactly Disgruntled. I could not agree more.
_________________________
"The constitutional republic is a dictatorship of our collective exploiters, the social democratic red republic is a dictatorship of their former allies."
-Karl Marx

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