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#8737 - 03/06/03 01:40 AM Re: Question for ya
Gremelin Offline

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Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 7192
Loc: Portland, OR; USA
Lol I think we hit a cord with Paragon :x...
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#8738 - 03/06/03 03:42 PM Re: Question for ya
Shinobi Offline
UGN Member

Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 390
Loc: Asheville, NC
::looks at SR's Post:: ....screw this computer shit i wanna be a weekend tennis hacker... Also the defination is a hacker is so distorted. By the media and movies and shit...No one knows what the exact defination is anymore....I think the Move "Hackers" Killed it too....
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#8739 - 03/06/03 03:45 PM Re: Question for ya
Gremelin Offline

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Registered: 02/28/02
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Loc: Portland, OR; USA
hey i found that movie amusing!
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#8740 - 03/07/03 01:17 AM Re: Question for ya
Paragon Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/02
Posts: 168
I'm not saying there is a single definition for the word "hacker" or "hacking" altogether, there are other definitions such as hack writer, and tennis hacker, etc.
Notice, none of the definitions for what we are talking about when we say "hacking" are contradictory, except in the case of "A malicious meddler who tries to discover sensitive information by poking around. Hence 'password hacker', 'network hacker'."
But the next sentence after that is:
"The correct term is cracker."

Also, consider that the dictionary definitions are written by non-hackers. A couple of the definitions there are defining how most people use the term, not defining what hacking actually is (and therefor what a hacker is).
The definitions of the kind of hacking we're talking about are essentially correct, and don't conflict. They're trying to define the same thing, but in very few words. I believe my text file gives a more accurate and in depth explanation of what hacking really is, and what it's about.

- A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary.
- One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations.


These seem pretty accurate to me, along with your programming one. So yes, when it comes to the kind of hacking we're talking about, there is a correct definition. I think you need to read my text file to truly get what I'm trying to say. The truth of what hacking is is more fundamental than what dictionary.com is saying (or rather the dictionaries it's referencing). Remember, those definitions were written by those who lack a proper understanding of what hacking is really about (except perhaps the one referencing the jargon file).

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#8741 - 03/07/03 04:28 AM Re: Question for ya
sinetific Offline
nobody

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 815
Loc: Ann Arbor
I always thought a cracker was somethings that you eat with cheese...mmmm cheese and crackers.... /me drools
How dare we put such a negative connotation on such a delicious snack!

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#8742 - 03/07/03 06:31 AM Re: Question for ya
Shinobi Offline
UGN Member

Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 390
Loc: Asheville, NC
::blinks.:: I thought the english lessons would stop when I got out of highschool?
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#8743 - 03/07/03 06:58 AM Re: Question for ya
Gremelin Offline

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Posts: 7192
Loc: Portland, OR; USA
No, college has specific requirements.
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#8744 - 03/07/03 07:46 AM Re: Question for ya
SilentRage Offline
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Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 1273
Loc: OH, USA
But the next sentence after that is:
"The correct term is cracker."


Of course one of the dictionaries would state that opinion. All it proves is that there's more than one definition. More than one correct definition of hacker when it comes to computers.

A word is subject to group definition. If Britain decides that a police man is called a 'Bobby' does that make it true? For britains anyway. Thousands and thousands of britains believe that a police man is called a "bobby". A biscuit is a cracker or some such nonsense. I'm no brit. But the fact of the matter is, their definition is as accurate as our definition.

Likewise, if the vast majority of the people in the world consider hackers to be malicious security breakers, then it must be so. Likewise, the thousands of other people believe that hackers are intellectual seekers of knowledge or other more godly attributes. They are no less right.

Ok, so your next argument is that bobby is personal to britain, and police man is personal to the USA - so they have a certain "right" to have their own terminology while the media/world have no right to call "hackers" by any other definition than what the "hackers" define themselves. That's about a falacious as saying there's only one pronunciation for "New Orleans". People who live in New Orleans and speak with that accent has their own pronuncation for the city name. While everybody else in the US don't give a damn and pronounce it their way. Many words in the dictionary state multiple pronunciations for a word cause each pronunciation is equally correct. Just like each definition for "hacker" is equally correct.

Another analogy:

That very bad man is a hacker
No, that very bad man is a cracker

That contraption is a computer.
No, that contraption is a microcomputer

In both cases, the second term can be said to be more accurate. However, does that mean the microcomputer can't be called a computer? of course it can! Just like a cracker - which may be a malicious person or not, even that definition is misused - may be called the more ambiguous hacker.
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#8745 - 03/07/03 07:59 AM Re: Question for ya
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
Okay, now for today's English lesson. I will put an end to Paragon's misconception about the function of a dictionary.

Quote:

A couple of the definitions there are defining how most people use the term, not defining what hacking actually is (and therefor what a hacker is).
A dictionary doesn't define common usage of a word, it defines standard usage of a word. When you say it doesn't define what hacking actually is, you mean it doesn't define what you consider hacking to actually be. The definitions for hacking in the dictionary are the standard usages of the word, the usages accepted to be correct. Just because they don't fit your idea of what a hacker is doesn't mean it's incorrect. It means your definition is nonstandard. Don't believe me? We'll take an example.

I've got a lot of friends that say something's gay to mean it's dumb. I say it quite often as well. If it's really not cool, it's gay. I know that it's not just my circle of friends, it's a very common use of the word. So, from Merriam Webster:
Quote:

1 a : happily excited : MERRY b : keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits
2 a : BRIGHT, LIVELY b : brilliant in color
3 : given to social pleasures; also : LICENTIOUS
4 a : HOMOSEXUAL b : of, relating to, or used by homosexuals
Excited, merry, lively, licentious, and homosexual. Nowhere do you see stupid, not cool, reproached. Yet the latter set is a collection of very common uses of gay.

Basically when you say that a dictionary defines how most people use a word, you're wrong. It defines the correct usage, how most people SHOULD use a word. Unfortunately it doesn't fit your view of hacker, but you just have nonstandard usage. I know the point of this whole thread is not about how to use a dictionary. My point is that you can't say that people incorrectly use a word, because you have an alternate definition of it. I agree with you, for the most part, though it gets tiresome reading all that crap about what hackers really are. But everyone's gonna have a different viewpoint, and it may be unfair that you label yourself one thing and people have a different perception of it than you, but that's just how it is.

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#8746 - 03/07/03 08:54 AM Re: Question for ya
§intå× Offline


*****

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 3255
Loc: Maryland
A hack used to be a short script added to a program back in the early days of modern computers. A hacker used to be the person who coded it. The meaning has changed a bit but not really. You still have to know how to code in many languages to be worthy of the title hacker.

When I think of hacker I do not think of Hollywoods version of a hacker. That is a cracker or script kiddy in my opinion... Hackers can of course break into secure systems but that is not all they do.

To me a hacker is the cream of the crop in the computer world. The speacial forces of cyberspace if you will. Everyone wishes they knew what a "hacker" knows. But few take the journey or do the work. I myself do not consider myself a hacker. I look up to hackers and consider myself a n00b in thier shadow. A hacker in my view is not malious by nature, (though I would not recomend crossing them)

Masters in many skills

Cracking
Coding
Social Engineering
encryption
buffer over flows lol
Master of all OS's
master phreaker
and the list goes on.


Wana get there? First love computers and make them your full time hobby. Other wise download a few trojan packages and go from there.

It is a long hard road and half way there when people do call you a hacker is when you realise you don't know shit and you don't even care about the hacker status anymore. From then out it is a quest to learn it ALLLLLLL
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#8747 - 03/09/03 05:22 AM Re: Question for ya
Ebmm Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 20
Loc: rochester, ny
I got the point and thanks for all of your responses. I (as many) had the wrong idea of what a hacker is, the hollywood thing I guess. I feel I may have started some disagreements though. Honestly, I couldn't put in the time to learn to be proficient at hacking or programming. Full time job, father, working on my house, playing guitar, etc. You might say that computers have been a hobby of sorts for the past 5 yrs or so and I know my way around windows more than most but that's about it. I like cool software, audio editing and related, track recording, etc. and that's about all I do with it. I think this forum is cool and if I have a question, this will be the place I come. BTW, the ex-wife thing was a joke. I actually get along with the woman! (most of the time)
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