Under God - Out or In

Posted by: Drake

Under God - Out or In - 05/10/03 06:32 AM

what do you guys think about taking "Under God" out of the pledge. i've always abstained from saying it myself, even when I was Christian, because I believe in seperation of church and state. Plus, the only reason it was put it (in the mid 1950's i think) was cause our government was trying to keep us from sharing views with the soviet union. one repetion every time we went to school, went to a rodeo, or any place where the pledge was said. I wonder what Bernard Marx would have to say to that.
Posted by: jonconley

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/10/03 06:47 AM

remove every reference to god in any government oath, our currency, our government documents, etc. I don't care if people love their Christian god or not. We already got a fucking preacher president pretty much delivering a sermon and quoting the bible. I don't remember his name being Rev. G. Bush. Seriously, keep your god out of it and do your job. Same thing with anything else, god doesn't reflect values. Individuals do, so you can still have a value system and not have a god, and the government claims that is why god is referred to in the documents, etc.

And me personally, I don't like any religions. But I have seen people offended and ostracized b/c they done recite the pledge, join along in a prayer at a public place, etc. Religion in government doesn't promote unity and tolerance, it creates divisions and a self-promoting supremacy.
Posted by: ObiWan

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/10/03 08:47 PM

While we do separate church and state (kind of) if a person runs for President who is atheist, I can guarantee that person will not be elected. The majority of the people in the United States hold some kind of religion or greater order hence; they want a leader who also reflects those principals.

Since this country was originally founded by the religiously persecuted it is unlikely that those words will ever be removed.
Posted by: SilentRage

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/10/03 10:19 PM

I think it's a nitty gritty point. I don't see that it matters one way or another. Saying 'under god' in the pledge isn't going to create a union between government and religion. Neither is removing it a sure fire way to prevent it. It's words, it's not even a statement of loyalty TO god. If people are so GOD sensitive that they get annoyed just by seeing/hearing/saying the word they can shove it up their anal behinds.

I don't like fanatical/strongly-biased/stubborn thinking. Neither for nor against... anything
Posted by: ObiWan

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/10/03 10:46 PM

Quote:
I think it's a nitty gritty point. I don't see that it matters one way or another. Saying 'under god' in the pledge isn't going to create a union between government and religion. Neither is removing it a sure fire way to prevent it. It's words, it's not even a statement of loyalty TO god. If people are so GOD sensitive that they get annoyed just by seeing/hearing/saying the word they can shove it up their anal behinds.
Good point.
Posted by: pergesu

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/11/03 02:22 AM

I hold the same/similar view to SR on this point, that extremism either way, on anything, is never good. Frankly, I don't care about this issue at all, really. People who get all pissy about saying two words in the pledge of allegiance are just looking for something to piss and moan about regarding the government. People who would get all worked up about the words being removed would need to chill out too. Because it really doesn't matter at all. About Bush being something of a preacher, well some people may not like it, but he's an American citizen as well, and he has every right to say what he wants. Personally, I don't care either way about whether he discusses god or not. The President's views don't dictate a person's views, and I don't remember him ever telling the country to be Christian or have a god. In addition, I think people should understand the intent rather than the delivery. It should be comforting to think that our President thinks of the country as being under the protection of something he has total faith in. The fact that it's a god doesn't matter, but what does matter is that he associates our country with the subject of his utmost faith. I think that says something about anyone who does that.

The government would never remove all references to God anyway. How much money would it take? I don't know, but probably in the hundreds of billions to trillions range. All to remove one word or phrase? Never gonna happen
Posted by: Cold Sunn

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/11/03 02:38 AM

I don't believe or disbelieve in God, and I don't have a problem saying "under God." If you believe in any God, then it makes sense. If you don't believe in any God at all, then don't worry about it. It makes more sense to keep it (to me) since the majority of people believe in a God. We aren't going to change the way things are just to make happy a group of people about an issue that doesn't matter. It's not like they want their freedom. Stupid America, liberating Iraq. What a dumbass idea, those Iraqi's loved Saddam. The polls prove it. Oh wait, i'm off topic.
Posted by: Drake

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/12/03 02:55 AM

It's a social pressure pushing you to accept a religion you don't want to have to accept. and i agree with perg on the bush/preacher thing. people knew his relegious views when they elected him. what'd they think, that he was just gonna forget them?
Posted by: hKzKnight

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/13/03 06:39 PM

Well religion was at one point deeply tied to government/politics... Religion was also designed for health purpose and control (in the past).
Posted by: dashocker

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/16/03 05:34 PM

I agree with perg and SR that extremeism either way isn't good. But it has to go. It says so in the Constitution, it doesen't matter you think. Any mention of any religion, as JC said, should be gone from anything related to government. It's law, plain and simple. And yes, the "under God" part was added by Eisenhower, it's not part of the original poem. So I don't see what the big deal is anyway. Of course, Rev. Bush would disagree. And another thing, what makes you guys so insensitive to other religions? I believe it is a branch of Christianity(Johova's Witness?) which takes the most offense to the "under God" statement anyway. At school, we were forced to recite the pledge after 9-11. A kid of the aforementioned faith was forced to stand and face the flag, even if it was against his religion to do so(also un-Constitutional according to a Supreme Court decision). BTW, I think God was added to most government documents to make those who signed them keep their oath. Why do you have to swear to tell the truth with your hand on a Bible in court? And Drake, were you referring to Karl Marx in your post or am I just unfamiliar with Bernard?
Posted by: Drake

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/16/03 09:58 PM

Bernard Marx is a character of a book called A Brave New World. I can't remember who it's by off the top of my head. It's a futuristic world wehre the population is mass produced on an assembly line by artificial insemination. while the embryos are growing they're subjected to physical exercises to make their bodies fit the role assigned to them in life. once they're born, they're brainwashed to believe adn want the things teh world-controllers want them to believe. Part of this is done with repetition. Bernard Marx is a kind of pyschiatrist who's embryo got screwed up so he's physically stunted in a palce wehre everybody else is physically the same. He constantly points out every time somebody says a phrase they got from the brainwashing. The entire book is crazy.
Posted by: BackSlash

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/19/03 02:03 AM

brave new world is by Aldous Huxley.... his fordship, lol
Posted by: pergesu

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/19/03 03:08 AM

No no no, he's not physically stunted where everybody else is the same. There are different classes of people. He's an epsilon, which is the lowest class, the trash of the world really. The top three classes (I forget what they are, but I imagine they're alphas, beta, and gamma) are produced for specific reasons, and the lowest classes (deltas and epsilons) are the genetic defects, the throwbacks.
Posted by: Drake

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/20/03 05:48 AM

he's an alpha plus. the top of the class. the cream of the world, really. he's physicaly stunted to the level of a beta. so he's self-conscios casue he looks like an inferior even though he's not.
Posted by: jonconley

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/21/03 12:09 AM

Also, about bush, I sounded kind of harsh, as I always do at first. I do not mind if he as a person decides to include this or that from the bible. He is acting as our president, so when addressing the nation as so or when involved in any type of policy-making, he should refrain. My personal belief. The main reason it angers me so much is a few reasons.

It creates divisionism in an already divided country, divided by religion, in a war that involves two distinct sets of religious beliefs. Not a good idea, its just bad politics.
Posted by: Drake

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/21/03 06:17 AM

yeah, now that i think more on that, i agree. one of the powers of the executive office is desrcibed as chief citizen. which means he's supposed to be chief among all the citizens, not just the Christian ones.
Posted by: pergesu

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/21/03 06:45 AM

At the same time, though, he has the right to bring God into his speeches. Whether you agree with his beliefs or not is irrelevant. Even having a super strict interpretation of separation of church and state doesn't matter. He is still an American citizen, with the same rights as the rest of us. Though you or I may not like it, it doesn't matter, because he is granted civil liberties just as we are, including the right to bring his beliefs into his speeches.
Posted by: jonconley

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/21/03 09:18 PM

I would agree, up to the point where you have to realize his position. He is the president, and when acting as a citizen, he is free to do whatever he wishes. However, when he is giving a worldwide media platform from which to deliver presidential speeches, that is neither the time, nor the place to be a "citizen". That is like saying the dollar bills and the bills floating through congress are able to have references and basis from christianity, simply b/c those are also created by "citizens". The president and politicians play many roles, and I don't think anyone has a problem with Dubya going to church if he wants. But that is a citizen, and not a president.
Posted by: BackSlash

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/22/03 12:57 AM

i agree that he has the right to bring his beliefs into his speeches, however, i feel that he should be conscience of the fact that he represents all the citizens in the united states, some of whom do not share his beliefs. another thought of mine was how his religous comments can be used against him by iraqi media. i imagine it wouldn't be hard to edit one of his speeches and portray him as a religous extremist and make the war in iraq seem to be a religous war. needless to say this could cause some ill feelings from devout muslims in the middle east.
Posted by: pergesu

Re: Under God - Out or In - 05/22/03 02:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BackSlash:
however, i feel that he should be conscience of the fact that he represents all the citizens in the united states, some of whom do not share his beliefs.
What can one person say that everybody in the United States agrees with?
Posted by: SEC Surtr

Re: Under God - Out or In - 08/19/03 05:47 AM

MAC sucks
*gets out a water hose and prepares to put out all the flames*
Posted by: smartyhands

Re: Under God - Out or In - 09/23/03 07:55 PM

I thought Bernard Marx was a beta who looked like a delta... oops "Why not? Bernard's an Alpha Plus. Besides, he asked me to go to one of the Savage Reservations with him. I've always wanted to see a Savage Reservation." LOL!!! I live on a 'savage reservation' ROTFLMAO!! It's so primitive here that we have DSL but no dialup provider... [knock]

Also, EVERY single president of the US has been Christian. There was a big hoopla when Kennedy was elected because he was the first Catholic and all the previous (and subsequent) presidents were Protestant. LOL

And don't forget that money not only has references to "God" on it, but it also has masonic (aka freemason, which dubya happens to be as well as a bonesman) symbols... the "all-seeing pyramid", which ALSO happens to be the new symbol for the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA).

My prototypical two cents... and how do I make my links a different color with UBB Code™? Thanks in advance
Posted by: Imperial

Re: Under God - Out or In - 09/25/03 08:58 AM

OUT- First step in removing the references and from the rest of our government


Hopefully some day no one will have to swear on a bible
Posted by: Red Mage

Re: Under God - Out or In - 10/28/03 08:17 AM

Why does it matter? I'm a Christian and I couldn't care less about it being in or not. My problem is wasting the time and money to remove all theological references. Also, everyone knew that Dubya was a Christian before he was elected, why do they suddenly care now? Did you think he would stop? (BTW, I think Dubya is a horrible president, and I don't care about his religion. All that matters is how he does his job.)
Posted by: Kawarami

Re: Under God - Out or In - 10/28/03 10:39 AM

This issue shouldn't create another "division" in the United States. It is clear that there is a separation between Church (all religious bodies) and the State (the government). The United States should adhere to this and not make any associations with "God." This should not be a hard decision to make. One person in this thread mentioned that a majority of the people in the United States believe in God. Well, if the majority of people also believe that murder should not be punished, then does that make the majority right?
Posted by: Drake

Re: Under God - Out or In - 10/28/03 05:50 PM

Red Mage - what if the money had references to Budha, or the Koran, or it said In Jehovah we Trust? You'd probably be upset that every time you paid for something you had to be reminded that you live in a country where another relegion is practically forcefed down your throat.
Posted by: Disgruntled

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/08/03 04:07 AM

I have read many of thoughts on this matter and, some I agree with, and other's I do not.


My view is that everyone has the same right to worship in whatever way they want, but they don't have the right to force everyone else to think the same way. This is a lesson the republicans refuse to learn. For those interested I do believe in GOD,
but not in organized religion.
Posted by: truthspreader

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/17/03 07:08 AM

I agree with Disgruntled here too. God has no place in public.
Posted by: Disgruntled

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/17/03 11:04 AM

In reply to truthspreader,

I didn't mean religion had no place in public life.
I just believe that religion & government should never mix. Because as we have seen in other countries, no matter how well intentioned a religion is, eventually you end up with a taliban type government.
Posted by: IceMyst

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/17/03 04:59 PM

I agree with Disgruntled. Religion belongs out side of the government. look at how many countris have gone to war over religion. the most famous Isrial. The government there forces the majority religion on those of other faiths and every other month or so you heard about a bombing or a group of people dieing because of it. I really dont want to see that here in the US because of the fact that this country was founded on religious freedom.

Unfortunetly it's gotten to the point were certain religions are starting to run our country. Certain songs can't be played on the radio because they're anti-religious. certain shows are being taken off tv or with cartoons the original dialoge is changed because a few churchs dont like what's said in it. books are once again being banned in school because some kids religious fanatic parent believes that books that are based on imaginary things (ie Harry Potter and yes at one point even Little Red Riding Hood was banned from all schools in the US) are evil and not appropriate.

But what about those people who's religions are based on the mystical? that's persicution of religion with out people even realizing it. It's more than should it be just taken out of the government but it's spreads off into schools also.

As our constitution states "seperation of church and state". gee i wonder what that means... that religion is to be kept away from the government. The founders of this country knew even then that the 2 do now mix and they still dont today, even more so now then back then.
Posted by: fleshwound

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/17/03 11:41 PM

i never really minded saying "under god", probably because when i was 6 years old i didn't what the fuck i was even saying. my point there is, that it doesn't affect children that much. it doesn't push anything on them. i had to say the pledge all through grade school. did that turn me into a bible beating god loving freak? no. i don't believe in any organized religions and not sure if i even believe in a god. all i'm saying there is that it really doesn't pervert children's minds because they really don't understand the words they're saying.
Posted by: Disgruntled

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/18/03 03:26 AM

In Reply to Icemyst,

Glad to see I'm not the only who can see the truth.
Posted by: Disgruntled

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/18/03 03:32 AM

In reply to Fleshwound,

I partly agree with you, children don't understand the beliefs behind the words their being taught, but in time they will understand. When this time comes it's usually to late for them to form their own opinions, because they have been brainwashed into believeing what the majority thinks.
Posted by: truthspreader

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/18/03 09:59 AM

Well said Icemyst.
Posted by: IceMyst

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/18/03 10:40 AM

fleshwood it's the fact that when i got into high school i understood it quite well and at the time i did NOT believe there was a God or any other higher form yet i was still forced to say a line i didn't agree with. got to the point were i refused to stand for the pledge or say it. is it really fair to have a child, and when i say child i mean any one under the age of 18, say something they don't believe in. i have friends who are extremly celtic and dont believe in the God that is said on our money and in the pledge. so why should they have to say pledge their alegence under a God that they do not beleive in and for note i do now beleive in God but i have a problem when people force their religion on me.

and i agree with Disgruntled with the brainwashing. I grew up in an exremly Catholic family. they spent 15 years trying to brainwash me into thinking that if i didn't go to church every sunday that i would burn in hell for eturnity or even better i was be disowned. my fathers family does not talk to me anymore because i'm not the good catholic girl they tried to force me to be.

and another note:
this women who was at the time a lesbian had a baby. the womens girlfriend had not parternal or legal rights to the child but after the two broke up she took the mom to court to sue for joint custidy and was granted it. during the court procedings the mother became a born-again-christian, and as most people know being homosexual is not allowed in the church. well the ex-girlfriend brought that up in court and now the mother is not allowed to in anyway "preach" or speak of God to her little girl. if this mother can't speak of God in her own house then why is it that we still speak of God in schools and in the government. once religion was a privite matter left out of work and school (except most privit schools) but now it's vise versa. it's a tabo to talk of God at home and it's perfictly ok to talk of Him in school and the government proceding regardless if it offends another person of a different faith.

pretty soon all laws and how our government is run will be dictated by the bible. do you really want to see that happen because as much as i do believe in God i do not want him apart of the government or our schools and i speak from the stand point of a non-believer and a believer.
Posted by: truthspreader

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/19/03 05:44 AM

I agree totally with Icemyst. God is a private matter and has no place in public. Once religion dictates society, all that you Americans claim you love will go right down the toilet.
Posted by: fleshwound

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/20/03 12:28 AM

i'm not disagreeing. i don't think it really has a place in the public view. it's just that in my school we only said the pledge in gradeschool. that's more what i was referring to. my own personal experience. and i'm just saying that grade school children don't fully understand the meaning of the pledge. true, middle school and high school students definitly will understand. if we were forced to say the pledge in middle and high school there is no way in hell i would have done it. but in grade school, i just did it because that's what we did every morning.

another thing: i agree that the schools shouldn't force a student to say the pledge if they don't want to. but to say that school pushes religion on kids isn't entirely true. they may spread a little propaganda, which is still wrong. but it's the kids' parents that do most of the religion pushing. and most of those parents don't mind if the kid says the pledge. i understand that there are those parents who don't push the issue. that's why there was a huge debate over the pledge in the first place.


i just think that any student should be able to opt out of saying the pledge if they feel like it. i don't think it should be forced on anyone. but if the kids want to say it, let them.
Posted by: truthspreader

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/20/03 06:20 AM

I have some friends who had to say it all the way up through high school. It does push religion on kids because they are singled out in not saying the pledge. and in Virginia students have to sit through a "moment of silence" after they say the pledge. You can't possibly say that religion isn't being forced on them.
Posted by: Disgruntled

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/20/03 10:07 AM

As far as "Under God "even being in there, legal analyst on a news show I was watching "can't remember which one" said that the president that did this broke the law in doing so. He just took it upon himself to put his personal beliefs into the pledge. Knowing that what he did was wrong, you would think that people would be rushing to undo this illegal act. The reason that it's not going happen, is because keeping it in serves the so called religious right and their hand puppets the republicans agenda. Thats how it starts with something small, a couple words in the pledge, next the ten commandments in the courthouses ect. Then one day you wake up and every dicision you make will be scrutinized by the religious thought police. That's just a sample of what I see happening, and what can happen if people don't wake up and think for themselves.
Posted by: IceMyst

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/20/03 12:01 PM

how can people think for themselves. there's this notion that it's wrong to have your own opinon. to think for yourself is wrong. in high school i was singled out because i refushed to go with what the preppy kids wanted and then oh my i had the nerve to complain about a club which happened to be called "Warriors for Christ". basically an after school bible study class that was held on school grounds. to top it off, if you look in my year book there's 2 pages dedicated to this club. any one else see the problem with that? when i complained 2 of my friends, who are christian, said i was wrong to say anything about that. i still think it's wrong. it's bring religion into the school. oh and did i also mention that every morning in plain view of the school in front of the cafateria the "club" joins hands and forms a circle and prays for about 10 mins before school starts. as i was told pray is not allowed in schools any more. thats the reason most schools can't have the moment of silence anymore because it's concidered prayer.

i love having my own mine and it's amusing how much it pisses people off. i grew up being asked by my family "why can't you just act like the other kids" "why cant you just go to church and cadacism (catholic sunday school)". the reason: i'm not a sheep or cow and i will not be hearded. i'm glad i live in this time because if i was born 100 years ago my need for independence would scare eveyone and cause such a rukis...

what a world this has become were all people fight about is religion and other peoples wars... what a sad thought...
Posted by: truthspreader

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/22/03 05:04 AM

That's very true disgruntled and IceMyst. It is getting harder and harder to express free thought. Everywhere you turn it is being suppressed. Like a few months or so ago a kid was suspended for wearing t-shirt that had a picture of Bush on it that said "International Terrorist." What the hell is that about? Kids can't even express their opinions in public schools in America! The place where they are supposed to learn how to be functioning members of a "democracy," they face oppression and restriction.
Posted by: blackhole

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/22/03 05:22 AM

I agree with some of everyones veiws on this subject but honestly I dont believe saying the pledge or "under god" made me feel religion is or was being forced upon me, and i dont feel we should waste time or money revising everything that has to do with the government just so "god" is not mentioned.
Posted by: fleshwound

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/23/03 12:27 AM

well said blackhole!
Posted by: Disgruntled

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/23/03 04:42 AM

I don't think we should remove everything pertaining to religion from the public eye. I also don't believe the public should be allowed to exclude other forms of religious thought at the same time. That's the problem we currently have. To many ppl think it's ok to put a couple of words in a pledge here; place a big couple ton ten commandments statue in a courthouse over there ect.. Yet those same ppl will fight tooth and nail if you try to add a jewish prayer to anything. They are also going nuts because some professor wants to teach a course on islamic religious beliefs. But its ok to teach about christian or catholic beliefs at that same college.
Posted by: truthspreader

Re: Under God - Out or In - 11/23/03 05:30 AM

Exactly Disgruntled. I could not agree more.