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#26109 - 08/20/02 02:02 AM Where to get answers about school
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This is probably just the typical "I don't like school" post so I'm sorry. Before I ask though, I wanna make sure you know that I do think there is a reason for the way our education system is now, but I haven't found it. I have heard alot of "School is important" from people that i really do respect, and so that makes me believe more that there is reasons behind learning Geography i will forget, math I will never use, etc. You guys know the deal.

So this is the thing, I would really like to find someone who can tell me the why's and all. I believe that the people in history are dead and gone, and that now and the future is what is important, because you can't change the past. I also think that no matter who says if you forget history you are doomed to repeat it, that it is our own history we need to remember, not theirs. I just remembered I wasn't gonna start ranting because everyone here has heard it or said it before.

I have asked teachers and my parents and whoever, but no one tells me an answer. Just, you will need it next year or someday in life...like on some gameshow. But they don't say where, for serious I mean. Just like, "If your boss says to wash every table number divisible by 3."

Basically, I am pretty sure there are real reasons out there, just no one wants to let you know. A kind of zen-true enlightenment, unleashing the dragon, being shown the matrix, that kind of way. Having to live it without a warning like every other generation.

I won't knock school anymore, if I found a good reason for the way it is now. Thanks to anyone that really does answer.

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#26110 - 08/20/02 03:38 AM Re: Where to get answers about school
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I have often pondered that exact same concept. When I was in highschool I was always after the teachers about the real world applications for the hideous amounts of useless kowledge that was rammed into my head. Like really, why the hell do I need to know how to use the quadratic equation or whether a certain poem was written in iambic pentameter or some other measure of syllable.

In all honesty I can think of only 2 valid reasons for learning this shit.

1. Knowledge is power. Any and every bit of useless info has the potential to come in handy at some point in your life. I say 'potential' because as we all know life is uncertain, and being prepared for anything is a tool that cannot be replaced.

2. Crossword puzzles. Have you ever tried to do the sunday new york times crossword puzzle? Damn is that shit hard! And it's the obscure bits of info that pass through your head that will make or brake you on these babies!

Now having said that, I still have no god damn use for that stupid quadratic equation!!

sum

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#26111 - 08/20/02 09:42 AM Re: Where to get answers about school
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lmao, cross word puzzles. Im to lazy to do those so i guess i should just drop out now :x


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#26112 - 08/20/02 04:50 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
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Neo had me a proof read a nifty "Why School Is Pointless" article, I'm surprised the administration didn't crusify him during class...

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#26113 - 08/21/02 12:38 AM Re: Where to get answers about school
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lol i remember him asking for ideas on an essay...and if that is the one I am thinking of, then hehe yeah that was the same one. You know what sucks though, is I want to believe we need to do all this bs, but I can't find it. I agree sum, that knowledge is power and it is good to know things, but if i had the past few years of my life to do what I wanted, (which would include getting a job and such.) then I would spend alot more time learning useless facts I am interested in, at sites like HSW.

I don't mean that we should have all school thrown out of course, just changed drastically. Elementary school, I wouldn't mind much if it stayed the same. Because even though english has managed to only teach something new once every 2 years, it takes that long for some people. Diagramming sentences will never be worth anyone's time. But not to go off on that again. Middle school, well I think that middle school and highschool could be condensed into this one 2 year school. I think it would cut out on things like driver's ed, electricity and electronics, etc. but this gives you alot more time to do things on your own. Not to mention, 12 classes is more than enough. Any math past algebra 1 is totally useless unless you completely plan on using it, and then you know you will use it. I do not think it is a good idea to allow a kid to stay in school an additional year, to take extra classes, unless when he agrees to it he is then required to do it. I mean, if it isn't required for you to even be there then what will the punishments mean to you?

If i found the reason all this shit is important, then I would definately post it. It is so annoying that people love to keep doing something without any reason, ever. The way we can debunk our own psychological problems and still have them. So, ending, someone seriously explain it. I don't want to go on in school thinking there is no reason to be there, and especially not if there is a reason.

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#26114 - 08/21/02 07:42 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
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"Game shows are designed to make us feel better about the random, useless facts that are all we have left of our education." - Invisable Monsters Chuck Palahniuk

What is learning but commiting a "fact" or "information" to memory? Especially if it's not applied or used in some way.

When you ask someone what they learned that day in school, you might as well ask them what they read or heard and commited to short term memory to regurgitate later on a test.

Teachers aren't payed much, because their jobs just aren't that important.


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#26115 - 08/21/02 11:22 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
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Yeah, I am reading Invisible Monsters right now, finishing it soon hopefully, and I love that quote. I am not sure where to turn for books after Chuck Palahniuk, til Lullaby comes out I have nothing to read...maybe 1984. Any suggestions Imp?

I know I should give it more time, but maybe there isn't a real reason...

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#26116 - 08/21/02 11:52 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
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Well, I assume you've read Fight Club...read Survivor it's a VERY good book, then there's Choke after that. And after just glancing at the back cover of choke (have it sitting around, just havn't gotten to reading it yet, just finished IM) it seems to be full of his dark humor.


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#26117 - 08/22/02 01:15 AM Re: Where to get answers about school
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yeah, I was trying to read his books in order, but I read Choke before Invisible Monsters. I started with Fight Club of course because the movie was so awesome...and I did like the book better. Most books that I had read, was only because of school. But C. Palahniuk has such an awesome style I have been buying all his books. Do you know of any other writers with a style as good as his? not neccesarily similar, but you know.

Oh, and, still, anyone know why we live this way? School?

Edit:

"Because nothing is as good as you can imagine it."

errg...i can't remember any more quotes that really good, out of context. I love his devices though.

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#26118 - 08/25/02 12:04 AM Re: Where to get answers about school
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heh, ah yes. Useless school knowledge. But first, a story: One time in 5th grade there was this kid named Ian, and he was smarter than most everyone in his class. One day, the teacher started to teach them an 'easier' way to do multiplication. It involved groups of banannas. Well, Ian was so confused by this insanely tedious way of doing simple multiplication he just kept asking the teacher things like "Wouldn't this just be easier?" or "Why?" Well, after a while, Ian confused the teacher so much she let the whole class out to recess early. Go Ian!
Well, U will need things like math and english when u get out of school. Unless you want to look like a complete retard most of your life. School seems pointless because the Educational System has not come up with a creative and practical method to teach. So they come up with lame scenarios. BTW, you must not disregard history. It is important and very interesting at that. I mean really, it seems that all these great things happened in the past that u can read about and go 'wow, thats so cool.' But do you say that about computers or the Internet? For the most part, no. But future generations will look back and say 'wow, we still use that today' or 'hey, this decision helped save our way of life' or what have u. And they can also learn from past mistakes and use past sucesses as models for their future. So dont say school isnt important, teachers are very important. Think of how dumb you would be if u never went to school. But maybe im just biased because I like Jeopardy...

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#26119 - 08/25/02 01:56 AM Re: Where to get answers about school
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Bah, first: teachers.

The system is plagued by shitty teachers, yes. There are also plenty of good teachers; and the occasional, miraculous, great teacher. Don't knock them all just because you've had only the bad ones, deal with it and move on because when you stumble apon a great teacher . . .
You see, teachers aren't just there to impart textbook knowlege to you. No no, they're also there to help you grow as people. Things like work ethics, a concience, helpful advice for high school problems theyv'e seen a thousand times. A great teacher can supply these things, a good teacher can make you want to learn what they teach. A shitty teacher is just shitty.

Now, history:

History has several things going for it.
1) It's fucking interesting. Seeing how people lived, what they did, how nations were formed and destroyed; it's fascinating stuff.
2) It actually is helpfull. Now, not everyone needs to read a book on Balkan history, but everyone should (IMO) at least have a sketchy background on what's happening over there and why. It's important.
Reading about how the US was founded; it's fascinating. Learning about the process, the hypocracy, the genuine beliefs, that is interesting. And yes, it too can come in handy. It's helpfull to know on what ideals your country was founded, not those that it wasn't.
The list could go on, but it won't unless you need more examples.

Now, don't get me wrong, a have a whole list of complains about the school system in general and mine in particualar, especially against the bad teachers, but that's beside the point.
The school system is shitty, most of what they teach is not needed. The general fields they attempt to teach, though, are. Also, school helps other things, it 'attempts' to help kids grow as people. Most people need the quidance; if you don't, ignore it.

Bah, long rant. The short of it: good teachers are good, history is good, most of the school system is bad.


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#26120 - 08/25/02 07:51 AM Re: Where to get answers about school
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Yay, some good replies.

About history, you said it was interesting and things, but see to me that means it is something that you should learn on your own if you are interested, and if you are I assume you probably do (aside from in school.) Using history as a model for success, I thought that was a very good point, and so far better than any others. (forgetting history and then repeat isn't the same thing to me, since it is the negative side of it which I think happens anyways.)

I didn't mean to knock all the teachers, so if it sounds that way sorry. I have had a few cool teachers, but it was the subject that I hated and the class.

Another good thing you pointed out was about teachers helping us grow and all that. I think that our family and people we are around could help us grow also, but, they might not do as good a job since they don't have to spend as much time around us. I think having jobs would also build work ethic. Truthfully, I can't think of a system I think would work best, i mean that I wouldn't criticize if we had it now. That is really annoying, but I am sure there is a better one, though I guess there is always something better.

One thing I have been wondering lately, is if replacing those big boards of people that make decisions, with a team of 2 guys. Where one guy comes up with the best plan he can, and the second guy tears it down as much as he can. So the first guy would have to keep making a better plan. I know that the boards of people are supposed to be able to come up with different ideas, so pick a guy that is good at thinking of plans, and one that is good at criticizing them. Not much to do with school, just saying.

shit, i was gonna say something else. I forget now. Anyway, tbg and dash sort of (well tbg covered it also though he was second...) those were the best reasons so far I have ever gotten. To me though, they aren't good enough. Which now, makes me think maybe we shouldn't change the whole system, just have a way out of it. The thing that has been pissing me off lately, is that this is my life, and someone else I will never meet is deciding how I have to live it, in so many ways I think are important including ways that I will never know. Heh, kinda sounds like I mean God...that is sort of sickening..nm. Just seems that to me, if I truly want to do something that wouldn't be hurting someone, (like people that want to kill people) that I should be able to do it. But again, I am sure most people here have said it and heard it before.

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#26121 - 08/25/02 05:17 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
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Just wait guys...In my own experience, I never could figure out what school was for until I graduated.

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#26122 - 08/25/02 06:38 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
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Heh, you say that and then don't say what it's for? Shame on you, shithead.

And sunn, I didn't read your post yet, it's long. But I will, and I may even reply to it, too.


"There is no end. There is no beginning. There is only the infinite passion of life."
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#26123 - 08/26/02 08:15 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
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(Kudos to the people that can make sense of this, prepare yourself because I skip around and ramble a bit. Seriously, big ass gold star for you)

Unreal: your argument assumes that we will share your experience and have our "urika" moment once we've graduated. It also assumes that school has purpose, and meets said purpose.

Would you agree that the purpose of school is to convey knowledge to students through teaching in the name of educating them?

Now, if school doesn't meet the parameters outlined above than what purpose has it had?
If we have knowledge forced upon us that we will never use again and never apply then were we really educated, did they meet the purpose?

The problem with our education system is that it's too broad. They offer us all of this knowledge and then demand from us what we want to do for a living, what we want to be. Then we have the task of looking at what we were good at or liked. So, say you enjoyed math, then you have to vaguely relate it to some perfession that intrests you that you've become intrested in because you've seen it on tv or heard about it.

There you go, you lose, the media has just picked a prefession for you. For years school has offered you all of those intangebles, bits of knowledge, and in the end we go for what is tangable...money, a big house, a nice car, a family. All of those years of being taught so much is forgotten, but with something tangeble you can hold it out and prove that you have it.

"On game shows, some people will take the trip to France, but most people will take the washer dryer pair" Chuck Palaniuk - Invisable Monsters

We ask when will we use this because we're afraid. We're afraid that we're waisting what little time we have with school...we'd all rather be washing our clothes...at least then we can prove we're doing something.

And look, history's great...I myself am very interested in it, but the truth is it's irrelevent. You can't change the past, you can understand it and decide not to do what someone did then...but those people are dead now, who cares.

Our time is in the present, in the future...we've heard it all before from our teachers and coaches, and psychogen said it best...they're just passing the buck.

The future's a threat.


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#26124 - 08/26/02 11:39 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
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i love tbg's point about good teachers. i have had several good ones in my life. the best was probably my 8th grade history teacher. she was so passionate about teaching and taught in a way i had never experienced before. but teachers are, for the most part, boring. They dont care enough about their topic. They go blah blah blah by the book. My observations have been teachers who think outside the proverbial box are the good ones. But now a days, you would be suprised at how much teachers are restricted by bureaucracy and bad principals. So it's not all their fault.
Impy, you had the best con post so far. I would be skeptical about plagarism if i was ur teacher But really, your point about things you forget once u get the job is very good. I also like the point about the dryers. I dont agree with the part about media picking your job. Sure some people are inspired by the cool things they see on TV. But did the media really pick that job for them? Say you see a story about a space shuttle and what not at a young age. You decide you'd like to fly that thing too. Not because of how the media portrayed the story, or the pictures that were shown, but because the idea of flying to space appeals to you in general. The media has nothing to do with that. I know thats some what cryptic, but try to bear with it. I also dont agree that history is irrelevent. Would you be living in the USA if History was irrelevent? No, you would be living in some English colony. Did our founders sit back and go: "In the past, we were treated like this, it is irrelevent." No. They stood up for their rights. They were tired of it. Some what of a hokey analogy but works for me. Wow, what a thought provoking UGN discussion!

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#26125 - 08/26/02 11:59 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
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ok, I clicked an aim link and it stole this window, that bitch.

Imp, seriously sometime i wanna have a conversation with you sometime. Ideas and stuff, if you don't mind.

When did the future switch from being a promise to a threat?

I would post more...
but, again, the aim thing, and I am tired.

unreal, please share.

When I am out of highschool, I am passing out fliers saying why school was or wasn't a waste of time and what you should do. Let the cat out of the bag, the dog out of the box, the sheep out of the...oven.

So far, anything I could learn from in history was taught long before i started hating school and thinking it was useless. Give me hope! (tbg, i think i could get on if I go out of school forever, now at least. Not positive though, but who is?)

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#26126 - 08/26/02 11:59 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
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im to lazy to read everyones replys but i was told school wasnt much on learning after grade school, after that it was about remembering, organazation skills, social skills and real life things.... not just learning. I thought it was a interesting opinion but i dunno yet, to young.


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#26127 - 08/27/02 12:31 AM Re: Where to get answers about school
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Dashocker, i am going to comment on your comment on History.

If me and Impy agree on it, (don't we?) then this is what he is saying. The past is important that it happened, but you cannot change it. Flash back to when we are about to break away from britain. We cannot change how we were treated, but we can change how we will be treated. See, the future is what you have to take control of. Yes, i am glad it happened. Everything that has happened before me i do not want to change, because this is my life now. Even the bad things, without them my life would be different and I don't want to be someone else.

So here is the thing, studying the past will not change it, will not make it better, or keep it from changing. All it will do is tell you how things used to be, and yes like tbg said maybe give you models for success. It was important that it happen, but now it is no longer important.

Whatever I do with my life, i want to be forgotten when I am dead. When you are alive, people can remember you and say, "hey he could help" or something. When you are dead, you can't change the future. (unless you believe in that ghost shit but leaving that out in my point) I want people to realize that how I was isn't important. i know we can't study the future the way we can the past, but if we focused on improving it, then i think we could make some real improvements.

I had a cool 8th grade history teacher. I hated almost all of that class, but occaisionally he would tell us about something interesting that isn't in the curriculum (ok i still don't know how that is spelled). He was cool, but i still hated the rest of it.

Also, I disagree with Impy on the media influencing your career, but not completely. I want to be either a web designer, or a writer, something in that area. I think that I got influenced by the media some, but not much. So far, nothing i have learned in highschool would help me. To be a writer, having good grammar, etc, English class, yeah maybe. But i don't believe in having rules on creation, i won't get too far into it but i think they had a few things in HISTORY where the people that didn't follow the "rules" in art, and all that, creation.

I wanna say that I have really liked this last half of the topic. There has been some good conversation, and i hope it doesn't end soon, or turn to silliness like the others.

And, i am sorry for posting alot. Or big posts. hopefully it is interesting.

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#26128 - 08/27/02 01:35 AM Re: Where to get answers about school
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impy: You say they offer us a broad base of knowledge and then expect us to pick a career. OK.
What else do you propose? Having a specific field of interest picked at birth? I doubt that's what you meant so please, enlighten me.
What type of system (or lack thereof) do you propose that would be better?

Yeah, the media influences peoples opinions on things and maybe ever their interests. So can books, games, articles, shit--anything can, and does. What's your point?

And on history--you don't study it to change the past, you study it to improve the future.

sunn: you want to be forgotten when you die? Bah, I want to be remembered. Or actually, not me, but something I did, some idea I had. Heh, a romantic idea, isn't it?

Focusing more on the future, yeah, it'd help. But only if we remember what mistakes were made to get there in the first place. (and when I talk about remembering history, it's not dealing with nitpicking and blaming people for what happened, that's useless. It's merely remembering it happened.) IMO, a knowledge of the past is an extremely valuable resource that can help improve the future.


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#26129 - 08/27/02 07:40 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
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One system I thought would work, is to have it so you start studying only what you are interested in, starting at Middle school. That way, by the time you know what you want to do as your career, you should have studied it. I mean, if you choose a career that you would enjoy doing, because it interests you, then you would be set, and school would not be so lame.

Right now, what I want to do is get out of school and just get a job instead. From the past few days, i have lost almost all hope in the idea that I am learning anything useful. The teacher is talking about how glaciers formed the great lakes, but in my head I am thinking, "Yes, maybe, but i don't care." One thing my friend pointed out, was that we don't know that what they teach us really happened. Yeah, there may be evidence but I have no proof it exists, not saying there is a reason to believe they are lying to us, but I don't know it happened. Even if I was there, I wouldn't know for sure that it was true, because it took so long. We never really know anything, and really don't like being taught what we don't know.

I don't know any adults (except those that use it every day or experienced it) that remember more about history about what we have learned in school. What I learned back in elementary school, back before i started hating it.

I don't mean there aren't any, but tbg could you give me some examples of mistakes in history we should remember?

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#26130 - 08/27/02 08:20 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
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Middle school? Man, you can't tell me that people know what they want to do as early as that. Hell, my main interests have shiften in the last year and probably will again.

The not knowing what really happened thing.
You think you live in the matrix now? Because that's the way it sounds.

I know much more history than what we learned in school, in fact, most of it was learned out. I'm not an adult, but close enough.

An example?
Vietnam.


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#26131 - 08/27/02 08:38 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
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Blue you really attacked it, I lub j00

But I see some of my points didn't come accross how I wanted them to, so here goes...no promises

Quote:
Originally posted by thebluegiant:
impy: You say they offer us a broad base of knowledge and then expect us to pick a career. OK.
What else do you propose? Having a specific field of interest picked at birth? I doubt that's what you meant so please, enlighten me.
What type of system (or lack thereof) do you propose that would be better?


I assume you have some idea of how school and such works in Europe, now most of it I don't agree with but they do like this idea that they have. Sunn hit it righ on the head, and that idea is that you begin to learn what interests you. If you're really intrested in math or language, you cut back on science or something and take more of those classes. And then on top of that you still take those classes you cut back on, but the parts that go with your field of interest.

Yeah, the media influences peoples opinions on things and maybe ever their interests. So can books, games, articles, shit--anything can, and does. What's your point?

What do those things like the media do? Influence you, you said it. Now, if you influence enough people what have you just affected? Society. Now, if society portrays the idea of a lot of money, a big house, a foreign car, and a career in New York since birth...then what do you think will appeal to you.

My first few days of science class we were asked to draw a picture of a successful person...it was just something to ease us into the year. Now, out of a class of 30+ 97% of the people drew people with big houses, a family, and a big corperate job.

Yes, people do end up as carpenters and bakers and candle stick makers. But if they have had the big corperate america job shoved into their heads their entire lives, truth is they're probably in those jobs not by choice. And then every day they aspire to be something else.

And on history--you don't study it to change the past, you study it to improve the future.

My first question is just a question, I don't have a side on it. But if you'd ever heard of the holocaust or any war...if no one had ever heard of them...do you think the idea would still be there?

About the colonies, fuck that. That's their past NOT OURS. Why should be care about what a bunch of dead people did? It doesn't really matter now does it? They did it, we have out country...now it's our time...and we should do our thing. Not spend our time learning about them and living in their shadows.

Here's an idea:
Erase the past and make your own.

Also, yes your idea of being remembered is very romantic. Now lets face the facts, you won't be. Probably none of us will, and that scares people. That past drives us to do all sorts of silly things, like put your people into slavery in the name of making yourself famous (i.e. the Egyptions)

The far more important memories for you should be those little times of perfection. A kiss, a song that reminds you of something coming on right as you think of that something, an explosion, a plane crash, something that will only be perfect for an instant..and never again

Focusing more on the future, yeah, it'd help. But only if we remember what mistakes were made to get there in the first place. (and when I talk about remembering history, it's not dealing with nitpicking and blaming people for what happened, that's useless. It's merely remembering it happened.) IMO, a knowledge of the past is an extremely valuable resource that can help improve the future.

What about learning from your own mistakes, instead of having the answers handed to you...this topic is about learning after all


I am the Lizard King
I can do anything
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#26132 - 08/27/02 08:47 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 201
Imperial Offline
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Imperial Offline
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 201
inside
Quote:
Originally posted by thebluegiant:
Middle school? Man, you can't tell me that people know what they want to do as early as that. Hell, my main interests have shiften in the last year and probably will again.

The not knowing what really happened thing.
You think you live in the matrix now? Because that's the way it sounds.


The Matrix? That's a bit extreme....I find that good rule of thumb is to belive nothing you hear and half of what you see. Explain just how we know that these things happened? Because a bunch of people said so? Now I'm sure you can already see what's coming, if I get a huge number of people together and swear that something happened that didn't...how do you know that it's untrue?

I know much more history than what we learned in school, in fact, most of it was learned out. I'm not an adult, but close enough.

An example?
Vietnam.


Now that's interesting, you actually persue your interests outside of school...maybe because what you're really interested in isn't taught or it doesn't go in-depth enough for you...so what if you did pick classes dependant on interest...has your interest in history changed?



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I can do anything
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#26133 - 08/27/02 09:33 PM Re: Where to get answers about school
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 524
dashocker Offline
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dashocker Offline
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 524
Cornfields everywhere...
ColdSunn, tbg's explanation about history is what i was trying to point out. And I belive IM the one who said "models for succes", yeah so anyway.
Impy, at first you said history was irrelevent, but now you just say 'fuck it.' What kind of attitude is that? lol, i mean really. Who gives a shit how your country was made? How many people died for it? I don't normally make one of these stupid ungrateful bastard speeches, but being irrelevent is one thing, saying you dont even care is another. You get what Im saying?

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