This may come as a surprise to some, especially jon In the coming elections, when I vote, I'll be voting for whoever runs against Bush. I really, really don't like what happened with Iraq, though as yet I haven't seen any repurcussions. My main issue is that the main reasoning for invading Iraq was because they're a threat, and the WoMD weren't destroyed and all that. Then we go in... and still didn't find anything worthwhile. To keep it from being a political fiasco, we're told that the war was successful in achieving our primary goal - liberating the Iraqi people from a tyrant ruler. Now I suppose that's a noble goal, if the people actually want to be liberated, but more importantly if that's the reason we did it. It just seems to me that once Bush found out that there was no evidence at all of weapons, he covered his ass by saying we went in to liberate the Iraqis. So I supported everything at the beginning, and now I'm just upset at how it all resulted. Has anyone's opinion changed on the Bush administration?

yea, dumbfuck(hereafter refered 2 as bush)is crazy. hes finishin what his dad started. if america can make it to 2004 then bush will hopefully lose elections.

perg, what if 2 years down the road they find a few tons of (place terrible soposed threat here) burried somewhere in the middle of the desert? then would the cause be justified? would you have suported his reelection? how does one know such a threat never did exist, or no longer does?
bently, why the fuck wouldnt america make it to 2004? how can you possibly think that it wouldnt? it would take a shit load of weapons to finish us off, not gonna happen.
Bush is a man that believes in ultimate truths. he believes there is a wright and a wrong, and regardless of what happens, he will always believe he is in the right. The only way that iraq could of possibly pissed me off is if they kicked our asses. fortunatly, it didnt take that long and it didnt cause that many american or iraqi civilian deaths. i heard something on on ebaumsworld.com, an anti-war american high school girl got bitched out by some iraqi guy saying that he was for the war because his country needed liberation. dont know how many ppl he really represents, but im willing to bet its quite a large percentage. thus, despite the change in motives for war, there still was a decent reason, so i only think bush is a hard headed guy with bad forein relation skills. nothing i didnt think before.

i agree with ohfuk in that bush has no foriegn relation skills, if his main goal was to liberate the iraqi people he should have stated that in the first place. i don't necessarily disagree with the war, i think the iraqi people will be better off liberated, however, i disagree with the way in which america went about doing it.

Bah, I'm willing to forgive him on this stupid Iraqi shit. I'm even willing to bend on his strong-arm foreign policy. But c'mon: the guy does not give one iota about domestic issues. That really pisses me off. He's president of THIS country; WE elected him; OUR economy is shit, etc. This "terror" thing is also out of control. One trusted CNN correspondent told me yesterday that "the chatter we are hearing is very similar to the days before 9/11." What the fuck is "chatter?" If you are going to tell me something, say it dammit! I don't want to be scared of everyone who studies buildings just because that's the only information you're willing to give me, asshole.

a] The government said it has definite proof of WMD and knew their locations. However, they were unable to show "us" (the american people or other countries) any proof, b/c it would compromise the security of the individuals involved in the process. I really hoped they would find weapons, but its become apparent with many of the inspectors leaving, that they did not have exact locations or any positive proof. Now I know they have "mobile facilities", but nothing has come back from any inspections on those or the initial missile supposedly carrying a chemical agent (found pre-war). So we are left hanging out to dry.

b] It was quite obvious and has now been pointed out by the Ds (they supported the president through the war and are now voicing themselves), that there was obvious propaganda attempting to spin attention away from Bin Laden and create a link to 9-11 and Saddam. Of which, there has been no single shred of proof.

c] Shortly after the war slowed down, president bush came on television and told the american people, irrelevant of finding any WMD in Iraq, he had already considered the war a success b/c the people of iraq were liberated. We didn't use the reason of liberation to go in there, a lot of countries NEED liberation moreso than Iraq (not that I condone liberating other countries), and it should not be made an issue now, to escape the failing of the government.

d] The reports coming back from the americans in Iraq is horrible. The Iraqis have told us they do not want america to place a government (a "puppet government" as they called it, they want to hold their own elections and already have a candidate that is gaining large groups of support among the people.

e] The US has to address some real war crime issues. First of all, the unprovoked attack on Iraq makes the entire war a mass war crime and violation of international law. Secondly, Al-Jazeera reported to the pentagon their location in Iraq, to avoid being bombed. After this was done, the US still bombed an actual site of aljazeera, killing reported. Now, not only is this bad enough, but Al-Jazeera made it a point to report this time, simply because when we were bombing afghanistan, we BOMBED al-jazeera too. So my problem with this is they are civilians, and when we are bombing perhaps the most unbiased media in the middle east (they have shown both sides through out many issues, America, Iraq, and leaders from both countries), there is obviously a huge problem with what we are doing.

f] I am shocked perg

g] No one will read this because it is too long, I know. But I feel better now.

Out of whim I read it. I still haven't read perg's post. But just letting you know somebody read it. Now I'm hungry and going to go get something to eat.

hey i read it! i couldn't agree more with you not just cuz i'm girlfriend either!

yeah.. i'm shocked too. wow.. Perg... wtf? it's amazing. i just remember all the previous debates about government/war etc. hahaha. way to go! it's impressive that you are able to see the truth and realize what's up. yay! now be a good boy and do the side smiley thing for me!!


i have a few things to add: nothing too big.. but ya know.. whatever.

a: i agree, Bush doesn't give two shits about the US. his domestic policies, or should i say policy (singular) is crap. cutting taxes the way he is will NOT make things better. he's already gotten us in way too deep. perhaps if we hadn't just had a few billion dollars worth of war the tax cuts would help. but no... too little too late baby Bush. oh... ya know what the US really needs more than anything? A GOOD EDUCATION POLICY!!! c'mon! let's get take these kids and make them use their brains. stop fucking teaching morals and preaching about sex,drugs,tobacco and alcohol.. teach the kids how to fucking read! teach them to write papers! teach them something that is of some use! arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. that is how pissed i am at the school system. when i'm president, they better fucking fear me.. cuz most of the teachers will either be shot or just fired for being complete ignoramuses.

b: i am sick of these fucking die hard republicans justifying this war. for example.. my parents. i love them to death.. they are very smart people... but they fucking buy into everything that Bush says! they take his word as if it were fucking handed down by god. (yeah.. the parents are really involved in the church now. wtf? when i was little... we didn't go to church..blahhh) anyway.. i'm sick of the media, the citizens buying into the bullshit.

c: TAKE DOWN THOSE FUCKING RIDICULOUS AMERICAN FLAGS! PRONTO! i am literally sick to my stomach everytime i see the flag now. how come everyone is faking it and pretending to be patriotic? if you are.. that's fine. but you don't need to display it for everyone to see. arghhh. yes, the parents have all kinds of flag paraphanalia. how obnoxious! oh, and anyone who says anything negative about bush or his fucking holy war with iraq is atuomatically "un-american". blahhhhh

d: seriously... the terror level warning scale thing needs to go. wtf? does anyone care that we're on orange right now? blahh.. scare tactics.. that is all that is. keep people scared so they'll blindly follow as we lead them into whatever we feel like doing today.
US leaders: hrmm.. let's see.. i think i'll start a war for no reason! remember, Saddamm has missiles! ohhhh what a bad guy for having missiles. let's kill him cuz he's so obviously evil for owning missiles!
the citizens: oh that is fabulous! let's do it! go USA!

arghh.. sorry. i totally went off on a rant there. but i needed to. don't even bother to respond to me.. i'm just insane. arghh

damn Fleshy, I agree with everything you just said! I mean: you hit every issue I would've done if I didn't have other things to do! Go girl!

Fleshy, I'm not "seeing the truth" right now, or doing anything differently at all. I believed everything, because I have faith in our country and our government. I felt that it made sense not to disclose any information to the public until after this was all over. Now that it's over, we've yet to see anything. There is no more operational security, we bombed the hell out of em, and control it as much as we need to. So there's no risk anymore in saying where and when the weapons were manufactured. Problem is, we don't have anything like that. So that's what pisses me off, and that's the reason I won't be voting for Bush. Nobody sends my dad to go looking for chemical weapons and then casts aside the justification for sending him in

Oh yeah, fleshy, I have an American flag hanging from my door, and another little one on my truck. Both alongside Marine Corps flags. I won't take em down, even for you

hehehe. i would take my flags down for you! (if i had any that is).

hmmm...i'd have to disagree with you flesh. i'm pro-war and pro-bush. and by saying that we saddam didn't have any weapons he wasn't supposed to? that's wrong. how do we know? cuz he fired them at us. he fired multiple (scud?) missiles which he wasn't supposed to have, and that the inspectors never found b4. we also have found (what we believe to be) mobile chem labs. trick doors and storage bins with pully systems? what else would they be hiding? as for the reporters. do i think killing them is right? no. but just note, that many ppl who work at those stations are baath party officials who were trying to hide from american forces. now you might be saying, well, even still. there's no ROCK SOLID proof of womd.
i mean, look at it this way. your talking with someone who doesn't really like you, and if he got the chance, he'd probably try to kill you. and you ahve partial evidence he may be carrying a gun. now you can't see it (he's got big hands, lol, just bare with me) so you say "do you have a gun" he of course would say "no" so you say, ok, give us proof. he writes on a piece of paper, "i dont' have a gun" are you supposed to believe him? of course not. so you say, ok, i'm gonna get someone to make sure. so you call over another person, while you do that, he puts the gun in the other hand. when the person checks he says "see? no gun" do you still trust him? we'll say your a skeptic and don't. so you say, ok, prove to me again you don't. so he picks up the same piece of paper and says "see?" are you supposed to just take his word for it? obviously somethings up. so you say, "thats it, i'm gonna find out by force if i have to" and as he says "but i don't have anything" he's acutally handing it to a friend of his behind his back. so you hit him, and check him, obviously he's got nothing on him. not the best analogy, but i gotta work soon, and it's all i could think of.

and so did anyone here think about syria? i'm willing to guarantee you that they were moved there. which makes syria just as bad as iraq, seeing as how they fund more terrorist organizations. so you might now say "but syria was/is giving up party officials to US forces...how can they be against us if they're helping" that's b/c they're not helping us, they're just appeasing us. they're giving us enough to hold us over...for now.
as for the tax cuts and stuff not helpig the economy just b/c they're for richer ppl. tell me, how many middle class americans trade millions of dollars worth of stock every day? not many. richer ppl get the tax cuts b/c they'll invest the money into our economy, thereby helping it. and a healthy economy will help everyone. however, i do think it was bad timing on bush's side to put in the tax cut, then have a war. just too much stuff happening that coudln't.
as for too many american flags. fake patriotism isn't good, but it's better than anti-americanism if you ask me. i dno't think it's possible to see too many american flags. i mean, c'mon, we're in america! whether you agree with what it's doing or not, it has been good to you hasn't it? i have one flag hanging in my window facing the street, and another hanging outside on my porch. and i must say, i smile everytime i drive down the street and see a huge line of them hanging over a bridge.
just as long as i don't see any french flags =P

sorry for the long post lol, but i'll stop here, and i didn't mean to pick on you fleshwound, but you had the most organized post so it was the easiest for me to extract your specific ideas from. i'll probably continue this later...or not, lol...//

Thank you for proving you can't prove a negative.
It's what I like to call a "lose/lose situation."

Although you make somewhat of a good point, you really think this money will benefit the wealthiest in any way? If they already have money, what use is say 1000$ more? Nada, this trickle-down Reaganomics shit is well...shit. And if you admit this well only help the rich, then why are we making an even bigger deficit to give the refund to everyone? Here's how it really works: Rich people get more money. They buy more stuff. I tell my cousins Cletus and Bubba. They break into the house. /me points to wrist: "Rolex." - Trickle-down economic theory

(OK, so the whole "quote" thing didn't work.)

** Just made the quotes work - perg **

We've got this thing in America in dealing with criminals, and it's the fact that they're innocent until proven guilty. I'm willing to concede this a bit in these circumstances, where there's evidence and far greater consequences. However now we've taken control, and have yet to find anything. My allowed time period is up. It's no longer time for Iraq to prove that they don't have anything, it's time for us to prove that they do.

ahh.... gollum, i know that everyone is entitled ot their own opinion.... but really.. i couldn't disagree more. oh well.

If you're not sure what to think... side with fleshy, she's the hottest person who reads the forums

Perg, what does your dad think? I mean alot of us, including me, can go ahead and say this and that, but most importantly, is how do the men and women and the service feel about the spin that has been put on the war and would your dad have wanted to go regardless of the reasoning, etc?

omg.. perg.. /me blushes and girly giggles. hahahahahaha. you just made my day!

My dad's been in for 22 years, and is now a senior officer. He does what the Commander in Chief says, no questions asked. He may disagree with the reasons, but that's just a sacrifice he's made. Personal reasons don't matter, the CinC's word is paramount.

Well I'm not too far away if you wanna visit... I leave June 3rd for Japan though, so better make it quick.

hehehe. i'm back in iowa! so you are too far away now

i plan on joining the marines or army within the year, but that makes no difference in what i would think...well, not yet anyway. i know when i join, that anything can happen, and i have to realize that i could very well pay with my life. like perg said, it's a sacrafice you have to make. and hey, "If you're not sure what to think... side with fleshy, she's the hottest person who reads the forums" ((note: i used regular quotes b/c i lack the knowledge of how to do it the fancy way =P)) if you put me in a summer dress...i bet i could look hot too! i mean, i think we all know flesh is hot, but in trying to stay in line w/ the topic, unless you can prove i can't be as sexy, you shouldn't say i'm not =P ::scratches self:: so err uhh, how bout that bears game?//

hahaha. i want to see you in a dress! take pics.. i'll get into a dress and take pics.. then we'll post them and see who is hotter. i know it'll be a tough competition though... cuz i'm sure you are so sexy in a dress. hehehe