UGN Security

Your thoughts please

Posted By: §intå×

Your thoughts please - 12/14/05 08:10 PM

I have been giving this a good bit of thought. Many of us work in jobs that make our employeers hundreds of thousands if not millions a year. I work in a job where my company makes 2.5 million off of me every year. Now I get a decent wage but many do not. I get less 56,000 a year. With 56,000 a year and home morgages in my areas starting in the 300,000 range for a small 2 bedroom 2 bath... Well you do the math. It still takes both mine and my wifes income. Unions helped bring workers up in the 50's through to the 80's but somewhere around 10% of employees are now union. This means thier time has pretty much come and gone.

Conservative democrats and Republicans have enacted many laws wich make the ability for employees to gather can enact unions difficult at best. Add to the the threat of out sourcing, even if you do form a union your shop can close up and be moved to india where they work for a bowl of rice. The working class has expanded to include Professors, Computer techs, engineers, "skilled workers". This is evident in looking at the tax cuts passed over the last 2 decades. The lion share 80% of which go to the top 20% money earners of the nation.

My thought is gathering in small groups at compaines is not going to work as you can be fired, harassed, and factory closed if you suceed. But we could unite in our buying power. It is too late this year. But what would happen if the targets and walmarts were empty come next years Christmass and people only shoped at mom and pop shops? Or if they only bought from places that took good care of employees? What if no one in america bought from companies that out sourced? The good might be made in China, india, hong kong... But we buy most of them. We still have the most money.

If we were to act now while we still command a great deal of buying power we could force the hand of the powers that be. My only problem is how to get the word out? How do we get ALL of the lower and middle class behind this idea? How doe we convince people spending a little more in the near future(five years) means more money in thier pocket.

Here is the issue. If you buy from Wal-mart who uses Child labor in third world countries... Yes you will get a great deal. But thier employees can't afford to live like the people in thier new commercials. Now if they could this would drive your wages up. Do you have any idea how many walmart employees there are in the US? Any idea how many different jobs/industries this company spans? Unions were found to move workers wages up. They were also found to move NON UNION wages up as the wages union workers made were figured in to the average salery for that industry.

Due to laws and outsourcing it is not safe to organise and demand more wages. So maybe if people work the other end. Maybe if people just quit buying from that company and see if they can market to the top 20% of the nation. Boycott any company doing a layoff or shedding a pension plan. If you here of a labor unfriendly company boycott them. Call them up and tell them you are boycotting them and telling all your co-workers and friends you are. This will be a joke at first as no one has sucessfully done this wide scale in our generation. But if we can pull it off. Only support companies after they raise wages and benifits.

I want to see

Health care paid for
35k and above wages
pension plans protected(for those frozen I want them un frozen and promises renewed)
Stock options

Many companies say they have to do these things to compete with new compaines without these protections in place for thier employees. Show them it makes a difference in our choice at the counter. If major compaies fall. SO [censored] BE IT.

Also there needs to be a focus on polotics. Maybe even a working class party formed. Nothing like green party, Something broad that everyone can agree on. A party that ensures our children are educated, that wars are not for profit, that government contracts are bided out to cheap companies in the US who pay thier employees decent enough to live.

I do not want to be a leader or rich. I just want to live without the bill collector on my back and worrying if I can take care of my daughter. I am sick of seeing fat cats suck up millions every year and cut back on thier workers. DEMAND THEY TREAT US WITH RESPECT. DEMAND THEY TREAT US AS THE FORCE WE CAN BE. We have a power of numbers and money. I need your ideas on how to get the idea out and how to organise. I will do it. Of course a website will start but people are calous to them now. Mass email is only deleted. What is a cheap effective way to get a boycott out?
Posted By: KillHour

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/15/05 12:10 AM

If you want to be given a higher wage, then you have to demand it. They're not gonna pay you more just cause they feel like it (would you?). Competition protects both the interests of consumers AND employers. If you make your company as much as you say you do, then you should have no problem walking into your bosses office and demanding a pay raise. You don't get to the top through Christmas bonuses, you get there by taking it by the balls damnit! pimp
Posted By: IceMyst

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/15/05 01:13 AM

Yeah I've been laughed at for asking for more money especially since we have minimum wage laws employers only have to pay you ther bear minimum. That's why i wont work at mcdonals or walgreens or walmart. though $10/hr isnt much more then $7.25/hr...

I've had friends whove gotten fired for going on their honeymoon (mind you it was preaproved). This coun try is very messed up when it comes to getting paid.

It ticks me off how easliy these companies will ship our jobs oversea's just to put more money in their pockets but in the process giveing poorer quality products and customer service.

At least once a day I have people say "THANK GOD YOU'RE AMERICAN AND SPEAK ENGLISH FLUENTLY!!" as soon as i'm done with my opening.

If i could stop buying products from walmart i would but they have the cheapest prices for diapers and most baby cloths and living off one income giz and i cant be choosy on where we shop. sometimes you have to go where the sales are which makes it so much harder.
Posted By: Testing

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/15/05 08:07 AM

OK, being honest here. Too [censored] drunk to read the above posts. However after breifly skimming them,, and yeah I mean briefly...

I would like to point out that higher wages do turn into higher product and service prices thus defeating the purpose.

I am in the mortgage field. Out of a mortgage that I write I make approx 5-7k on a good loan. I make approx 100k plus a year. Now the mortgage companies I write these loans for make [censored] millions off the interest.

Bottom line,, who cares. Let em make [censored] millions. Perhaps I will be in a positon someday to do the same.

Spoken like a true (grant4ed drunk) conservative if I have ever heard one!
Posted By: IceMyst

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/15/05 04:00 PM

yeah but prices dont go down that's the problem. they want to lower what we make but keep the prices where they are (such as food, cloths, etc.) by lower my wages while keeping prices the same makes it very hard for me the consumer to buy more, which for these big companies means i buy less things that i want (books, movies, etc) and concetract on the things that i need (diapers, baby cloths, baby food, groceries).

that's what gets me....
Posted By: §intå×

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/15/05 06:41 PM

Originally posted by shadow516:
If you want to be given a higher wage, then you have to demand it. They're not gonna pay you more just cause they feel like it (would you?). Competition protects both the interests of consumers AND employers. If you make your company as much as you say you do, then you should have no problem walking into your bosses office and demanding a pay raise. You don't get to the top through Christmas bonuses, you get there by taking it by the balls damnit! pimp
Shadow, *Sigh* I like you a bit and all but that was just ignorant.

Look around you people. Wages are now set in india and china and prices are going up here in the states. Lets take a look

Gas - going up
electricity - going up
real estate - SHOOTING UP
healthcare - SHOOTING UP
food - slowly inching up but will goo up with gas prices
insurance - going up

Now lets look at jobs.

Computer tech - going down
doctor - standing still
lower management - going down
call center - going down
manufacturing - going down

This may seem great now but I tell you we are at a threshold here. There are more people being grouped into lower income now. There is getting to be less and less going into a bosses office and demanding a raise. More and more of, well that isn't my call, or you are maxed out in pay for this position. Through laws and rules the "haves" have put in place they will creat a huge pool of labor that will fight itself for thier jobs.

Lets back up to the early nintys. If you even thought computers were cool, you were in demand. The average computer tech could sign up with a company and get them to train him and make good money doing what is now [censored] work. HTML, customer support, things now that are a dime a dozen. But now lets say you are a CCIE cisco certified engineer. You are sitting pretty good. But gues what, in the last year I would say 33% thats 1/3 of the CCIE's I deal with are either here on HB1 visa's or in a call center in india. CCNA no longer rally means jack, CCNP, means a little more than CCNA.

The labor pool for this country is larger than this country. It is a un-fair dissadvantage. Right now I am fine, but what about 5 years from now. Morgages you say hus? Why can't the bank out source that work you do? In michigan you have an [censored] load of out of work auto workers. Think there are many jobs up there? They are thinking everything you would,

Let me get training in something else so this doesn't happen again. I will get this CCNA thing, great, here is 20k a year. CCNP, okay here is another 5k. Meanwhile the CEO's of this country have steadily increased thier money. I hear you, I'm fine. That will not happen to me, Sintax is gone off the deep end with a conspiracy theory.

I have a goone eye for the future guys. I remember talking about FTTP in here a while back and you guys said, yea no time soon though. 1 million homes this year 2 next. You can either take some action or wait for it to affect you and your family. If you wait and I am right, we the lower classes are grouped into a big lower class for labor. Do not say how did this happen to me. I am elling you now.
Posted By: IceMyst

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/15/05 10:26 PM

I have to agree with "what about 5 years from now". lets face it i work in a call center (my job can easily outsourced). at each new center i work at i have to start thinking of ways to get promoted so i can A)make more money and B) will have more experiance so at my next job i can get hired into a higher paying position.

after a while of doing this work you get burnt out. then what am i sopposed to do? go work at mcdonalds and go from making, if i'm lucky, 18k down to 13k. these ceo's have set us up to fail in such a way were they make more money while making us the lower class feel that "it's ok, they're doing what's best for me in the long run".

Posted By: §intå×

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/16/05 03:39 AM

If you did work at McDonalds you would be in the manufacturing industry. Yep Manufacturing is making a come back in the US. Oh wait you do not know what I am talking about. Let me back up. Soon after 9/11 when the yes Mr. President machine was in full swing, our fearless leader had fast food and a few other industries re-classified as manufacturing for the stats you hear about.

Many of those "positive growth" numbers you hear about on the news are not what they seem. Jim Bob a father of 2 husband and sole bread winner looses his job at GMC manufacturing because the plant move out of country. This is fine says the walstreet broker. MANUFACTURING IS ON THE RISE AGAIN. Jim Bob can get a new job like many others in his boat. See 25k doesn't seem like much to someone who cleared 25 million last year. Jim Bob then gets a Mc job. Don't belive me?

From CBS news

Oh here is the US senate

Here is the House of rep

But hey Ole learner is crazy and paranoid right? Well enjoy your manufacturing jobs. Or maybe they will be engineering by the time you have to work them. For the loyal Bush followers, this sound kosher to you? Sounds pretty shady to me.
Posted By: Testing

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/16/05 04:58 PM

As a small business owner I find it ridiculious the governement can dictate the minimum wage I have to pay someone. As this number increases so does the amount I have to withold for workmans comp and other taxes. My cost to have an employee goes through the roof. If I pay someone 10 bucks per hour my cost is actually much higher.

The rise in minimum wage forces me to hire less people, raise the price of my good or service, or just bend over and take it. If I hire less people my productivity is affected. If I raise the prices then everyone pays for the minimum wage increase and my profit margin shrinks even with an increase in price (due to increase in workmans comp and taxes withheld). I am not in business to just bend over and take it so that aint gonna happen.

The only good that comes from increase in minimum wage is some [censored] pimplefaced mcdonalds employee can now buy himself an extra few CD's at the end of the week.

So sure a one dollar an hour raise might be nice for the macdonalds worker but for the employer whos not a [censored] millionaire its very very damaging.

Who pays for the healthcare of the workers making 35k and up? The employer? HAHAHA yeah right. Imagine the cost on that!

Everyone always looks at things from the wrong end of the stick. People look at it from the employee standpoint. I guess if you plan on being an employee for the rest of your life thats the right way to see things.

For me I have goals of owning several businesses. So when I run across these type of political discussions I tend to think from the employer point of view. Just how I work. lol
Posted By: KillHour

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/16/05 05:05 PM

Originally posted by Testing:
The only good that comes from increase in minimum wage is some [censored] pimplefaced mcdonalds employee can now buy himself an extra few CD's at the end of the week.
Amen to that!
Posted By: §intå×

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/16/05 09:26 PM


The only good that comes from increase in minimum wage is some [censored] pimplefaced mcdonalds employee can now buy himself an extra few CD's at the end of the week.
I have known you a while, do you really belive that? Do you know how many families live off minimum wage? To you and I that sounds crazy, and do you really only pay minimum wage? lol you go Scrooge!

Lets look at the senerio you put on the table. 35k pays own health care.

$35,000 per yer(well above minimum wage)
that is about $16.82 an hour.
That works out to be $672 per week.
After tax and Social security $443.52

Not bad hu? $1,774.08 per month take home.

Now lets add health care. Avg cost for individual nation wide is about $75 to $100 a week. We will low ball it. Assume this person got a good deal.

Now we have $368.52 for the awsome HMO they set up. Still not too bad. $1,474.08. Now lets pay some bills.

Rent - $700 to 1600 depending on area We will say $700.
Food - $150 per month because this person we will assume is single
clothes/shoes for work - $50 Just to keep up.
Gas - $40 per week total of $160(this is low bal in most areas)
Electric - $120 per month
car payment - $128 this is a used car obviously
insurance - $50 per month clean driving record

I would say that is bare bones to live. Oh wait...

Phone - $30.00 per month no long distance

This leave 86.00 a month and we have yet to eat out, get cable, internet, get a flat tire, get sick and call out of work, buy gifts for b-day, holliday.

Like I say, I am not hurting for cash. But you run the math. See what income you need to make it?
Posted By: Testing

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/16/05 11:18 PM

No matter how you cut it living off minimum wage absolutely blows. However its supposed to blow. Thats why its called MINIMUM.

People have the choice to get second jobs or increase there educational and get a job that pays above minimum wage.

I generally am quite insensitive to those who complain about the minimum wage not being high enough. Who lives there life just trying to do the minimum?

I grew up on food stamps and welfare while my mother worked her way through college to get a masters degree. I myself have worked minimum wage jobs however I never did it for too long. I found a way into a field with commission so I could earn more. The point is,, minimum was just that,, barely making it.

I do not pay minimum wage. I do something much worse. I refuse to have "employees". I have independent contractors. Nobody gets paid unless I get paid. Write a loan, get paid. Don't write a loan, starve. I will starve with you. Or I will write a loan myself.

I agree that its tough to make it on 35k per year. But that doesn't mean the govt or the business should pick up the health care cost because its too expensive. Get more education or skills and get a higher paying job. Get a second job.

Its not the employers fault you only can pull in 35k. Its not the governments either. Why should they pick up the bill?
Posted By: §intå×

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/17/05 12:26 AM

Consider this,

More and more healthcare is left on the sholder of the employee/citezen. They cannot afford it so they do things like vist the ER to get medical help. They never pay. This drives the cost up for you and I. The hospital has to re-coup costs so you end up with things like $7.00 for two asprin(I saw this on my bill for my wifes child delivery). Costs go up, more companies drop thier plans, more ER visits, more costs go up. See a pattern?

It is benificial for all to find another way. Health care costs are spiraling out of control. $35k as I broke it down is hard to live a good life. You can, but god help you if something happens to dissrupt your life. Now 35k is a [censored] load more than minimum wage. $16.82 versus $5.50(I belive is minimum wage). Now how many people are on minimum wage? Think they have a health plan? What do you think that does to our medical costs?

There are solutions. Germany has solcialised the heath industry, canada has also. Yes taxes go up. But if you get brain cancer, you at $8.00 per hrs get the same treatment as me at $28.18 per hrs. It is cheaper in the long run.
Posted By: IceMyst

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/17/05 03:43 AM

At the end of ther week I can afford diapers AND payrent. Pay me less and I have to choise between the 2. Roof over my sons head or diapers on his butt.

You're not the only one who needs to survive. So do your employees and if you dont want to pay them what their worth so they can just barley survive then you shouldnt own your own busiess. Cause when you're the boss you cant JUST think of yourself.

I cant afford to make under $9/hr. Any less and I cant afford to pay rent, utilities, and keep my son clothed & feed. It's not right to make me choice between the 3 cause all have to be paid. Not much of mine and giz's money is spent on stuff we want.

Now tell me what's more important? More money in higher up's pockets or lower classs america being able to afford the nessisities in life that are needed to survive?
Posted By: Testing

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/17/05 06:38 AM

Is it fair to make me pay more because you can barely survive? IceMyst Im not talking about you and I personally but consider this.

Why is it necessarily my problem if you cannot make your own ends meet. If you cant survive financially how is this my burden? As a business owner I already get whacked if you don't make a lot of money and thats because you don't buy my products or use my services. Someone who is choosing between rent and diapers as you put it, will not be in the market for my services or the services of thousands of other businesses. So the business gets whacked once.

However its not fair to place the financial problems of the lower class on the shoulder of small businesses. If you raise the minimum wage thats basically whats happening. The small businesses take the hit.

Personally I have been so poor as to steal diapers for my son, been on welfare, have worked minimum wage jobs and have lived from paycheck to paycheck literally for way too long. I have a deep sense of empathy for those still struggling at that level. Personally now that I make more money I find I still have struggles just with different dollar amounts.

Instead of rent its a mortgage, a metro car payment its a Honda, the overhead of the office, instead of one set of clothes to buy for a kid its 2 for both of them. The list goes on.

I guess I just accept its my own personal responsibility to get ahead in this life. The government isn't going to do it for me. There are no handouts from large corporations.

Personally i want the government as far out of my way as possible. I don't want them meddling in my business affairs, personal affairs, everyday life. The less government involvement the better.

The health care system is all [censored] up. Canada also has a top notch system that everyone pays out the [censored] for. Personally I don't want to pay out the [censored] unless I get sick. 7 bucks for an aspirin isn't that bad, I have seen it as high as 20.
Posted By: §intå×

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/17/05 04:00 PM

To answer your question, is it your problem? Well yes, yes it is. What happenes when medical costs are out of your reach? If everyone paid a small amount to include the rich, the poor, and the middle class. Doctors offices were not allowed to jack prices up, there were caps on prices set. Then medical coverage drops so that it is cheaper for all. As I said this is proven numerous times in other countries. What do you pay now in insurance? $150? $200 per month? Imagine that droping to $50 per month if everyone pays by law?

Does that sound so bad? Yes I think the government can step in and regulate a bit. Yes I think everyone can pay a bit. In the end it is cheaper and more efficient. You have had 2 kids. You ever look at the bill afterwards? How much on it was jacked up in price? Is that fair to the insurance company to have to pay for all those that didn't pay? Think about it, if everyone paid a minimal fee then there would be a [censored] load more money. This is however a bit of subject. Healthcare is one thing I take issue with.

Let look at the others. You have a small business and belive me I feel your pain

I too am looking at contractors to do my work. But lets look at bigger companies. American airlines went to thier employees and talked them into taking a lower pay for the next 3 years then gave them selves multi million dollar bonuses.

Enron, no need to say more.

I can list many companies for you if you like. You say, it's thier company, if the employees do not like it move on. Okay, to where? Take my industry. With all the mergers... What we have left is

Bell South

Now SBC will soon buy Bell south I am betting. This gives them 100% control of Cingular wireless.

Sprint is in bed with the 4 major cable companies

There is no MCI now, Verizon bought them out

Quest is primed to be bought up as they are cheap(screwed up, but cheap none the less)

SBC or now named AT&T buys bell south, Verizon buys Quest. That leave


All of which will have thier areas. Sure you have mom and pop telco's. lol Where the CEO is the head tech and marketing rep to major customers.

Lets look at the energy industries

Exon and moblie are 1 company

Power companies though deregulation(we saw how great that was for California) are merging and seting higher prices.

So Testing, you say everything is great and no change is needed... Tell me if we do not raise minimum wage or make some sort of change how someone making 35k will afford to live in 5 years?

Housing costs going up
Electric going up
Medical coverage through the roof and not slowing down
Gas prices will only rise with time
Education is going up exponetialy
All this will drive food up

If you make 100k you are fortunate enough to be in the upper middle class. But how does the middle and lower middle class make it? The bulk of ou population I might add. Surely you know what has happened in history when the bulk of the population is left out to pasture? They rebel. 35k is a far cry from taking the minimum as you say. That is someone trying. Now they could get 2 35k jobs but then the spouse will probably not be able to hold a full time job very well if they have kids.
Posted By: Testing

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/18/05 12:09 AM

I agree medical costs are high. I agree for some families they are so high they are out of reach. The companies you list are public companies. Most public companies are just that, funded by the public. The public buys shares and that produces income the company can use to increase growth and productivity. Become a major shareholder and work on changing the companies if you believe so strongly in the cause.

I just cant stand the viewpoint that the governemtn is supposed to take care of us financially. We are in a sink or swim society. Make it rich or be a bum your whole life we dont care. Its your choice. Every person has the ability to make themselves rich, every person has the ability to make themselves broke. It bothers me when the bums say its the governments fault there not rich.

And regarding making 100k. Lets just remember that the more money you make, the more money they take. The average guy making 100k certainly pays more in taxes then the guy that makes 35k. So wtf. Do we whack him again and say,, sorry mr 100k maker,, we know you pay more in taxes then mr 35ker but he has no health insurance. So were gonna whack you again and take some more of your money. bullshit.

Lets not forget that big business does provide jobs. Smack businesses too hard and there will be less jobs available thus perpetuating the problem.

Instead of trying to hold 2 35k per year jobs try spending your offtime from the first job building your own business. Try increasing your education. Try doing something other then begging the government for a handout.

Of course Im not speaking directly to you personally but rather to those that have the above attitude!
Posted By: §intå×

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/18/05 12:42 AM

Everyone does not have the ability to become rich... The system is not set up like that. There has to be those lower. It is just how capitalism works. If everyone was rich... Everyone would be poor. lol that doesn't make sense at first but think about it. There would be no rich if everyone could make it.

Big companies are much like how I picture mythical giants. They move and accidentaly crush small companies they are so massive. They make what seems small on paper a change and ruins thousands of lives. I do not necesarrily think the government has to pay to make a system work. They could do what they do best. Legislate. Require everyone pay a flat rate into a health care tax, then do away with insurance companies that profit off the money and refuse to pay when they think they can get away with it.

Or regulate insurance companies. Limit Malpractice and frivilous law suits to keep insurance down. Basically a few laws could better things a lot.

I am sure your taxes suck [censored] man. I made 80% of what you got last year and it pretty well sucked when uncle sam [censored] raped me. This could be limited also if the money was spent more efficiently. Say open all contracts in Iraq and Louisana to bid instead of to Mr. Presidents companies. Lowest company that has the man power to get the job done gets the job.

Instead of paying contractors to do certain tasks, make criminals in jail do it. How much money could that save? What about the jobs? I do not know, but that is less taxes...
Posted By: Testing

Re: Your thoughts please - 12/18/05 01:25 AM

Flat rate for healthcare would be an interesting idea, and not one that I am completely opposed to.

If criminals in jails could produce the same quality work (even a tad bit less would be ok) then I say [censored] and makem slave away.

Last year I made 92k. I paid 500 bucks in taxes on the whole thing. Did I break the law no. I simply made sure I paid a grip to a fat [censored] CPA that understands my business and understands tax law. I played the game with the rules the IRS sets for me. When you know the rules its not so bad (and I'm not talking about the retarded instructions they give on the short form!).

This year should be about 120k and yeah im a little worried about mr taxman. We will see if my guy does his magic again. I will of course update you.

The average guy making 100k pays out the [censored] in taxes. Personally I find taxes a [censored] insult and will forever do my damndest to legally minimize my tax burden. Is it fair someone who made 40k in income last year paid more money in taxes then I did? Hell yeah it is. I did the research and found the tax guy who knew the laws. That makes it fair in my book!

In the end I believe were both on the same page with our ideals but have different ideas on how to get there.
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