UGN Security

Question for ya

Posted By: Ebmm

Question for ya - 03/05/03 01:51 PM

Other than cracking software, I can't think of a reason to learn to hack. Is it just a hobby? Can you make $$? Can you gain revenge? I know little about it which is why I must ask what the benefits are. What are the risks involved in certain hacking agendas? If a particular talent can gain me something then I will learn that but right now, I can't think of one. I may just hang out and shoot the [censored] with a pretty cool forum. Give me some ideas and my eyes may be opened.
Posted By: Ebmm

Re: Question for ya - 03/05/03 01:54 PM

Can I get my ex-wife??? lol....
Posted By: SilentRage

Re: Question for ya - 03/05/03 02:43 PM

hah! That's exactly why I don't make hacking a hobby. There's little reason to do it! At first it was just the coolness aspect. What you don't understand fascinates you sort of thing. The other coolness aspect is the power effect. People want to feel powerful. So, even well-intentioned "good" hackers may learn to hack simply cause it's complex and therefor a challenge, fun for that same reason, and gives ya a rush when you start doing wicked things. Just little things, like you would associate with white lies.

Some do move on to make a profession with it. I've known guys who's hacked for money. Those are the kinds of people where power plays a huge role, and a good challenge.

Some fall away cause it's too much trouble, they don't have the patience to learn. Some fall away after they've learned enough that they lose the fascination aspect since they now understand what hacking is all about, and therefor grow bored. Some may fall away from the same reason, but also realize that there's no purpose in it, no point. It's just a game. And people of that type value other things more than games.

Like me, when comparing it to programming. smile

So in my perspective, there's very rare occasion where I would even WANT to hack anything, cause it's rare that such techniques are needed. Programming is much cooler. IMO it's far more complex, and therefor holds more fascination for me. Not to mention it's incredibly useful.
Posted By: Ebmm

Re: Question for ya - 03/05/03 02:49 PM

Excellent response!
Posted By: pergesu

Re: Question for ya - 03/05/03 08:30 PM

I would agree. I don't know much about hacking, but from what I can tell, I think it would get boring. Scan a system, find an exploit, run the exploit, same old thing. Programming though, it's always different. I have problems that I get interested, see if I can solve them with code. I find it's been very useful, too. In fact just last week I finished a calc test in less than 10 minutes and the next person came in at just under an hour. Instead of doing homework all week, I figured out the math and wrote programs on my calc to automate things for me. Useful, fun, and I know how to do the math so there's nothing wrong with it. I've also found that I learn a ton when doing any programming. For example, the servlet control panel I wrote, I knew maybe 15% of what I needed to to write it when I first began. I knew how to find what I needed to know though, so I was able to. In just this one project I probably doubled my knowledge, learning about server side processing, database access, encryption, optimization. Maybe I'm biased towards programming because I know how to do it, but I think that it's a hobby that doesn't have any limits.
Posted By: Gremelin

Re: Question for ya - 03/05/03 08:39 PM

its why hackers are commonly people who dont' have anything better to do. Some even get a thrill out of a seek of knowledge. Hell, we made a program for owning YaBB boards, and only used it for a week lol...
Posted By: Paragon

Re: Question for ya - 03/05/03 09:28 PM

Hackers are not just poeple without anything better to do. The people I know are busy people. I am a very busy person, I don't have time for anything. smirk
The reason hackers hack is for knowledge. But in learning about hacking, you learn about security, and hackers often go into computer security related jobs (as I intend to).
How does $100,000 a year sound? smile
Posted By: Gremelin

Re: Question for ya - 03/05/03 09:47 PM

I said commonly, I didn't say all. I personally am a quite busy person, I bairly have time to myself as is.

You need to have school degree's, if you ever saw my resume you'd see a long list of skills, but without any certificates its quite worthless.

Businesses seem to like to think that education is built on degrees as opposed to what one can learn on their own.

If you go and look at the curent pricing for differant degree programs you'll see that they get quite high. The more you ahve the better chance you have at differant places (MCSE, A+, Cisco, Server 2, etc).

Paragon, perhaps you should think and read before you get all anal retentive about something that I state?

Most of the hackers that I know hack when they don't have anything better to do, it is when they have the time to do everything. And I'd never call you a hacker, no offense but you couldn't hack your way out of a paper bag.

Good luck on that $100,000 a year, you do realise that working up to that will take quite the bit of time. Bu the time that you get the work experiance equal to make that much you'll be 50, funny how retirement runs about 60.
Posted By: Paragon

Re: Question for ya - 03/05/03 10:04 PM

I know you said 'commonly' I was just making sure he doesn't get the wrong idea. I wasn't being anal retentive. My comment was directed at the guy who started the thread, not you.
I'm getting certifications. I've done my studies for several at college, and I'm heading towards a CCIE Security certification. With that, the average salary is around $115,000 a year. So I know what you're saying. I know it takes time, and you need experience. I plan to get it. Considering I've only been into computers for a couple years, I think I'm doing alright.
Can't hack my way out of a paper bag? WFT? You don't know how much I know or what I know about.
You'd never call me a hacker? I don't know that you even know what a hacker is. I was a hacker before I ever touched a computer.
Posted By: SilentRage

Re: Question for ya - 03/05/03 11:17 PM

who cares what hacker means. There's lots of valid definitions floating around out there. Don't try to constrict anybody to a single meaning. Sure, it'd be simpler that way, but that's just not the fact of things.

If Gizmo feels you don't match HIS definition of hacker, then you can just deal. I personally feel uncomfortable if people consider me a hacker, but I can see their point. I've hacked, so therefor to some I must be a hacker. Makes perfect logical sense though I disagree with it. I just be sure they're clear on what I DO and DON'T do rather than what I "AM", then all is good.
Posted By: CyberNerd

Re: Question for ya - 03/05/03 11:17 PM

There are three kinds of hackers...the white hats-jedi knights Gray hats-punk kids Black hats-the crackers who many people think are the only kind of hacker

Computers are the future as well as power, the more you know about them the better of course the best job in my opinion is the security consultant. You can get megamoney as a hacker working to protect systems from hackers. Thats about how it works. Being a good hacker is quite hard to do it's mostly time consuming and problem solving. Programming is more fun than hacking a system and like SR said there is very little occasion where you should hack someone. could you get your x-wife back? of course, i have two main interests computers and martial arts i dont intend to hack anyone, and i dont intend to kill anyone with my bare hands but its always good to know that you can i guess its a power trip
Posted By: Paragon

Re: Question for ya - 03/06/03 02:18 AM

Well, a hacker being someone who hacks makes sense, but just because you have hacked, doesn't mean you do hack, so you're right, having hacked doesn't really make you a hacker.
I believe there is a correct definition of what a hacker is, though mine may not be exactly right, I'm fairly confident I'm pretty close.
"who cares what hacker means."
Generally, hackers care what it means, because people usually get it wrong, thinking hacking is about breaking the law and hacking people's computers illegally, etc.

If you'd like to read what I think a hacker is and what hacking is about, here's a link:
Posted By: SilentRage

Re: Question for ya - 03/06/03 03:46 AM

"Well, a hacker being someone who hacks makes sense, but just because you have hacked, doesn't mean you do hack"

and if I do still hack every once in awhile does would THAT make me a hacker? I don't consider myself a hacker, but people may think so if they want.

"I believe there is a correct definition of what a hacker is"

You're still convinced there's a single definition? If there's any definition then a dictionary would have it. Let's take a looksy at what it has to say:

hacker (the first search result)
1) One who is proficient at using or programming a computer; a computer buff.
2) One who uses programming skills to gain illegal access to a computer network or file.
3) One who enthusiastically pursues a game or sport: a weekend tennis hacker.

I consider number 1 to be the original definition of hacker in reference to computers. The meaning has since become more widely known as definition number 2. You'll find in later search results on that same link where they say that definition number 2 is discouraged and that it is really called a cracker.

It failed to mention the also widely prevelent idealistic abstract mental definitions of hacker - which I consider to be an indulgance of wanting to make a 'hacker' something next to godliness.

check out this other definition:

"One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming."

By golly, under that definition I fit the word 'hacker' to the T.

How can you say there's any RIGHT definition for the word hacker? How? It's proposterous. It's narrow-minded, it's limiting. Very few words have only one meaning. So just admit to yourself - if not to me - that there's more than one definition of hacker! There's the computer buff hacker, there's the criminal hacker, and then there's the oh so favorite godly hacker. All definitions are correct!
Posted By: sinetific

Re: Question for ya - 03/06/03 04:09 AM

I think the definition of a word has to do with the popular opinion of the group your addressing. If you talk to an average joe, a hacker is a computer criminal, if you go to a linux users group, a hacker is a great programmer. At first, i think a mixture of boredom and the quest for power leads people to hacking. Later on, they either drop out realizing how much dedication is involved and how time consuming it is, or their love of knowledge and technology and their new found respect for it leads them to become programmers and computer security profesionals. The deffinition of computer criminal came about when these people with this great love of technology become upset and use there talents for illegal activities and since thats mostly what you hear about from the media that's why that has become a popular definition.

ebmm no one here is going to convince you to become a hacker. I don't think there should be any convincing or eye openning involved. It's something that just comes naturually through your love of technology and what you can do with it.
Posted By: Ares

Re: Question for ya - 03/06/03 04:17 AM

Well guys i have to say i agree with SR there are several correct meanings to the word "HACKER"
Posted By: Gremelin

Re: Question for ya - 03/06/03 09:40 AM

Lol I think we hit a cord with Paragon :x...
Posted By: Shinobi

Re: Question for ya - 03/06/03 11:42 PM

::looks at SR's Post:: ....screw this computer [censored] i wanna be a weekend tennis hacker... Also the defination is a hacker is so distorted. By the media and movies and [censored]...No one knows what the exact defination is anymore....I think the Move "Hackers" Killed it too....
Posted By: Gremelin

Re: Question for ya - 03/06/03 11:45 PM

hey i found that movie amusing!
Posted By: Paragon

Re: Question for ya - 03/07/03 09:17 AM

I'm not saying there is a single definition for the word "hacker" or "hacking" altogether, there are other definitions such as hack writer, and tennis hacker, etc.
Notice, none of the definitions for what we are talking about when we say "hacking" are contradictory, except in the case of "A malicious meddler who tries to discover sensitive information by poking around. Hence 'password hacker', 'network hacker'."
But the next sentence after that is:
"The correct term is cracker."

Also, consider that the dictionary definitions are written by non-hackers. A couple of the definitions there are defining how most people use the term, not defining what hacking actually is (and therefor what a hacker is).
The definitions of the kind of hacking we're talking about are essentially correct, and don't conflict. They're trying to define the same thing, but in very few words. I believe my text file gives a more accurate and in depth explanation of what hacking really is, and what it's about.

- A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary.
- One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations.

These seem pretty accurate to me, along with your programming one. So yes, when it comes to the kind of hacking we're talking about, there is a correct definition. I think you need to read my text file to truly get what I'm trying to say. The truth of what hacking is is more fundamental than what is saying (or rather the dictionaries it's referencing). Remember, those definitions were written by those who lack a proper understanding of what hacking is really about (except perhaps the one referencing the jargon file).
Posted By: sinetific

Re: Question for ya - 03/07/03 12:28 PM

I always thought a cracker was somethings that you eat with cheese...mmmm cheese and crackers.... /me drools
How dare we put such a negative connotation on such a delicious snack!
Posted By: Shinobi

Re: Question for ya - 03/07/03 02:31 PM

::blinks.:: I thought the english lessons would stop when I got out of highschool?
Posted By: Gremelin

Re: Question for ya - 03/07/03 02:58 PM

No, college has specific requirements.
Posted By: SilentRage

Re: Question for ya - 03/07/03 03:46 PM

But the next sentence after that is:
"The correct term is cracker."

Of course one of the dictionaries would state that opinion. All it proves is that there's more than one definition. More than one correct definition of hacker when it comes to computers.

A word is subject to group definition. If Britain decides that a police man is called a 'Bobby' does that make it true? For britains anyway. Thousands and thousands of britains believe that a police man is called a "bobby". A biscuit is a cracker or some such nonsense. I'm no brit. But the fact of the matter is, their definition is as accurate as our definition.

Likewise, if the vast majority of the people in the world consider hackers to be malicious security breakers, then it must be so. Likewise, the thousands of other people believe that hackers are intellectual seekers of knowledge or other more godly attributes. They are no less right.

Ok, so your next argument is that bobby is personal to britain, and police man is personal to the USA - so they have a certain "right" to have their own terminology while the media/world have no right to call "hackers" by any other definition than what the "hackers" define themselves. That's about a falacious as saying there's only one pronunciation for "New Orleans". People who live in New Orleans and speak with that accent has their own pronuncation for the city name. While everybody else in the US don't give a damn and pronounce it their way. Many words in the dictionary state multiple pronunciations for a word cause each pronunciation is equally correct. Just like each definition for "hacker" is equally correct.

Another analogy:

That very bad man is a hacker
No, that very bad man is a cracker

That contraption is a computer.
No, that contraption is a microcomputer

In both cases, the second term can be said to be more accurate. However, does that mean the microcomputer can't be called a computer? of course it can! Just like a cracker - which may be a malicious person or not, even that definition is misused - may be called the more ambiguous hacker.
Posted By: pergesu

Re: Question for ya - 03/07/03 03:59 PM

Okay, now for today's English lesson. I will put an end to Paragon's misconception about the function of a dictionary.


A couple of the definitions there are defining how most people use the term, not defining what hacking actually is (and therefor what a hacker is).
A dictionary doesn't define common usage of a word, it defines standard usage of a word. When you say it doesn't define what hacking actually is, you mean it doesn't define what you consider hacking to actually be. The definitions for hacking in the dictionary are the standard usages of the word, the usages accepted to be correct. Just because they don't fit your idea of what a hacker is doesn't mean it's incorrect. It means your definition is nonstandard. Don't believe me? We'll take an example.

I've got a lot of friends that say something's gay to mean it's dumb. I say it quite often as well. If it's really not cool, it's gay. I know that it's not just my circle of friends, it's a very common use of the word. So, from Merriam Webster:

1 a : happily excited : MERRY b : keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits
2 a : BRIGHT, LIVELY <gay sunny meadows> b : brilliant in color
3 : given to social pleasures; also : LICENTIOUS
4 a : HOMOSEXUAL b : of, relating to, or used by homosexuals <the gay rights movement> <a gay bar>
Excited, merry, lively, licentious, and homosexual. Nowhere do you see stupid, not cool, reproached. Yet the latter set is a collection of very common uses of gay.

Basically when you say that a dictionary defines how most people use a word, you're wrong. It defines the correct usage, how most people SHOULD use a word. Unfortunately it doesn't fit your view of hacker, but you just have nonstandard usage. I know the point of this whole thread is not about how to use a dictionary. My point is that you can't say that people incorrectly use a word, because you have an alternate definition of it. I agree with you, for the most part, though it gets tiresome reading all that crap about what hackers really are. But everyone's gonna have a different viewpoint, and it may be unfair that you label yourself one thing and people have a different perception of it than you, but that's just how it is.
Posted By: §intå×

Re: Question for ya - 03/07/03 04:54 PM

A hack used to be a short script added to a program back in the early days of modern computers. A hacker used to be the person who coded it. The meaning has changed a bit but not really. You still have to know how to code in many languages to be worthy of the title hacker.

When I think of hacker I do not think of Hollywoods version of a hacker. That is a cracker or script kiddy in my opinion... Hackers can of course break into secure systems but that is not all they do.

To me a hacker is the cream of the crop in the computer world. The speacial forces of cyberspace if you will. Everyone wishes they knew what a "hacker" knows. But few take the journey or do the work. I myself do not consider myself a hacker. I look up to hackers and consider myself a n00b in thier shadow. A hacker in my view is not malious by nature, (though I would not recomend crossing them)

Masters in many skills

Social Engineering
buffer over flows lol
Master of all OS's
master phreaker
and the list goes on.

Wana get there? First love computers and make them your full time hobby. Other wise download a few trojan packages and go from there.

It is a long hard road and half way there when people do call you a hacker is when you realise you don't know [censored] and you don't even care about the hacker status anymore. From then out it is a quest to learn it ALLLLLLL
Posted By: Ebmm

Re: Question for ya - 03/09/03 01:22 PM

I got the point and thanks for all of your responses. I (as many) had the wrong idea of what a hacker is, the hollywood thing I guess. I feel I may have started some disagreements though. Honestly, I couldn't put in the time to learn to be proficient at hacking or programming. Full time job, father, working on my house, playing guitar, etc. You might say that computers have been a hobby of sorts for the past 5 yrs or so and I know my way around windows more than most but that's about it. I like cool software, audio editing and related, track recording, etc. and that's about all I do with it. I think this forum is cool and if I have a question, this will be the place I come. BTW, the ex-wife thing was a joke. I actually get along with the woman! (most of the time)
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