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#12727 - 03/05/05 02:47 AM Millionaire Refuses to Submit to Fake Law - From 1st Class to Bus Pass
§intå× Offline


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Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 3255
Loc: Maryland
When John Gilmore arrived at the Southwest Airlines counter for his flight to Washington he presented his ticket to the gate agent. The agent asked for John's ID. When asked why the ID was necessary the agent replied: It is the law.

When John asked if he could see this law no-one could produce a copy of it. "Are they just basically saying we just can't travel without identity papers?" asks Gilmore who used to work for Sun Microsystems and is worth 30 million.

John has started an argument which could turn homeland security upside-down. John cannot fly inside the US, hire a car, or rent a room at most hotels. He even has trouble entering the courthouse where his case is being heard because he will not show ID.

Source
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#12728 - 03/05/05 03:44 AM Re: Millionaire Refuses to Submit to Fake Law - From 1st Class to Bus Pass
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Registered: 12/03/02
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Follow this people. This is a very important case. For those of you who say they disslike the Bush admin, this is why you should. This is about our rights being slowly eroded.
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#12729 - 03/06/05 01:46 PM Re: Millionaire Refuses to Submit to Fake Law - From 1st Class to Bus Pass
Gremelin Offline

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Registered: 02/28/02
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I agree with him completely; I HATE this shit! I'm an American citizen, I have every right to my privacy, I don't want someone to be able to see "he is here at this time, it's verified as him, blah blah blah"
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#12730 - 03/06/05 03:15 PM Re: Millionaire Refuses to Submit to Fake Law - From 1st Class to Bus Pass
IceMyst Offline
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1449
Loc: Where ever Gizmo is
So what are they sopposed to do then when people have electronic tickets. Any person who knows ur name could go up to the countr and say they're you and have the flight changed and everything and you would be none the wiser until you go to the airport and check in. As long as someone says they're you they could grab your rental car, use your airline ticket, use ur bus ticket.

How would you feel if you were trying to go to defcon and had an electronic ticket and you show up at the airport to findout someone changed the date on you ticket and went down to vegas on ur bill?

There is a reason why airports, bus terminals, and hotels id you. It's so crooks cant steal what you've paid for and they can make sure they're giving their services to the right person. It's the same reason why ur sopposed to get carded everytime u use ur credit card. It's helps prevent theft and lawsuits. Unless you want people to take ur word that ur name is Marcus Donavan and my name is Serena O'Neil.
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#12731 - 03/06/05 08:52 PM Re: Millionaire Refuses to Submit to Fake Law - From 1st Class to Bus Pass
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Quote:
Originally posted by IceMyst:
So what are they sopposed to do then when people have electronic tickets. Any person who knows ur name could go up to the countr and say they're you and have the flight changed and everything and you would be none the wiser until you go to the airport and check in. As long as someone says they're you they could grab your rental car, use your airline ticket, use ur bus ticket.

How would you feel if you were trying to go to defcon and had an electronic ticket and you show up at the airport to findout someone changed the date on you ticket and went down to vegas on ur bill?

There is a reason why airports, bus terminals, and hotels id you. It's so crooks cant steal what you've paid for and they can make sure they're giving their services to the right person. It's the same reason why ur sopposed to get carded everytime u use ur credit card. It's helps prevent theft and lawsuits. Unless you want people to take ur word that ur name is Marcus Donavan and my name is Serena O'Neil.
If the reasons you stated are correct... Why I ask you is the law requiring these things not available for the public to see? Did you read the full story? The department of transportation first denied this law even existed because the law itself is hidden behind a cloak of national security.

In other words if you see the law requireing yo to present an ID at the airport it could comprimise national security. And this isn't the only law. And add to that, this guy had a paper ticket to fly inside the US.

Read the full article. There ar a total of 16 different areas where laws can not be viewed like this now after 911. So we are to obey a federal law we are never allowed to see? That sounds a bit like animal farm to me.
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#12732 - 03/07/05 06:57 AM Re: Millionaire Refuses to Submit to Fake Law - From 1st Class to Bus Pass
IceMyst Offline
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1449
Loc: Where ever Gizmo is
I read the full article. There's lots of places were there's a rule or law that the gernal public cant see but they have to abide by it. Such as with cell phone companies and their company policies. You dont know how many times I was asked while working for Verizon that the customer wanted a list of the company polices mailed to them. But could I do that? No I couldnt because Verizon didnt want that paper to get in the hands of their competition.

I know people want to physically see the law but just because you cant doesnt make it wrong. I feel more safe being asked for my ID then when I dont. I actually get kind of pissed when store dont card me when I'm buying alcohol and especially pissed when they dont card Gizmo when he's cashing checks at the bank.

I dont like the thought of people just taking our words that we are who we are. We no longer live a world where it's safe to do that. I would rather be safe then sorry when it comes to my id and national security especially since not all terrorists are that smart and use their real id's.
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#12733 - 03/07/05 09:34 AM Re: Millionaire Refuses to Submit to Fake Law - From 1st Class to Bus Pass
xacex Offline
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Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 81
Loc: Tallahassee, FL, USA
But there is a difference between company policy and the law. Every company can have a different set of policies that they follow but every company has to abide by the laws that are set by the country. If you don't like that companies policy then you go to a different company.

It sounds more like the company not wanting to change their policy but not wanting to loose that customer either.

It also sounds fishy to me when I'm being forced to assume the position and follow the laws but am not allowed to see the actual writing of the law itself? That just doesn't make any sense.
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#12734 - 03/07/05 12:10 PM Re: Millionaire Refuses to Submit to Fake Law - From 1st Class to Bus Pass
Spyrios Offline
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Registered: 03/15/04
Posts: 419
Loc: VA
Icey I understand where you are coming from, but here is the real deal. The fact is that you have had to have a picture ID to board a plane for as long as I can remeber, pre-9/11 and guess what those bad guys had picture ID, so they were able to fly dozens of times before the actual attack to gather intelligence about how to carry out the attack. People in this country are buying into the "we are doing this for your own good" bullshit. Right before thanksgiving last year, there was a huge article about the fact that some government thug can, at his discretion, pull you aside and feel you up, your breasts and your pubic area "to check for explosives". But I'm a full blooded white american you say, big deal, because if we start pulling out the middle eastern people, remember the ones who attacked us, it is profiling but that's wrong, so go ahead Mohammed, enjoy your flight while we pat down this old lady with a walker. I am so sick of the go ahead, I have nothing to hide mentality, because guess what, by the time they get to you, they will have a law in place agaiunst something you have, or you do. As a matter of fact just by entering into this debate, anyone of us could have just opened ourselves up for monitoring by the FBI or Dept. to promote Homeland insecurity. Been reading to many conspiracy sites you say? Well, read PATRIOT and PATRIOT II, guess what they don't even need probable cause to search anymore, just suspicion. I took an OATH to support and defend the constitution of the United States of America, and I don't see how any of theses laws are even remotely constitutional. /rant off
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#12735 - 03/07/05 05:53 PM Re: Millionaire Refuses to Submit to Fake Law - From 1st Class to Bus Pass
unreal Offline



Registered: 03/01/02
Posts: 860
Loc: KCRQ
Alright folks, let's get something straight.

First of all, I'm very much against the erosion of our civil liberties under the Bush administration. However, the need to show ID before getting on an airplane is not a threat to your liberty.

Take this from a pilot: The person in charge of your airplane (the Captain) has every right and responsibility to have everyone on his flight accounted for. Yes, you can even be refused boarding just because he says you can't. If someone refused to show ID before getting on my flight, they don't board. Tough shit. Quit being a martyr and take your seat.

Law or no law, the airline has a right to know who is traveling on their airplanes. This also applies to trains, rental cars, etc. They are responsible for their assets, and you better believe that they're going to require some form of ID.

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#12736 - 03/07/05 06:55 PM Re: Millionaire Refuses to Submit to Fake Law - From 1st Class to Bus Pass
Spyrios Offline
UGN Member

Registered: 03/15/04
Posts: 419
Loc: VA
you are still failing to explain how the 9/11 hijackers were stopped by showing id
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#12737 - 03/08/05 05:46 AM Re: Millionaire Refuses to Submit to Fake Law - From 1st Class to Bus Pass
xacex Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 81
Loc: Tallahassee, FL, USA
They weren't, but most of the laws put in place directly because of 9/11 have nothing to do with preventing anything that had happened or that will happen.

Companies have the right to do whatever they please which includes making each customer show ID or not as long as they are a privately owned business. Which is perfectly fine, I'd rather not have the government have a hand in businesses anyway. But stating it's the law is a falacy and is misleading to their customers.

Whether you think it's right or wrong, you can't deny ID-ing people is a practical and smart business move.
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#12738 - 03/08/05 01:31 PM Re: Millionaire Refuses to Submit to Fake Law - From 1st Class to Bus Pass
unreal Offline



Registered: 03/01/02
Posts: 860
Loc: KCRQ
Quote:
Originally posted by xacex:
Companies have the right to do whatever they please which includes making each customer show ID or not as long as they are a privately owned business. Which is perfectly fine, I'd rather not have the government have a hand in businesses anyway. But stating it's the law is a falacy and is misleading to their customers.
The airlines are private businesses, however they are regulated by the federal government (the FAA). They must abide by the regulations in 14 CFR Part 121, as well as many regulatory directives. One of which is Security Directive 96-05:

Quote:
1. IDENTIFY THE PASSENGER -

A. ALL PASSENGERS WHO APPEAR TO BE 18 YEARS OF AGE WILL PRESENT A GOVERNMENT ISSUED PICTURE ID, OR TWO OTHER FORMS OF ID, AT LEAST ONE OF WHICH MUST BE ISSUED BY A GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY.

B. THE AGENT MUST RECONCILE THE NAME ON THE ID AND THE NAME ON THE TICKET -- EXCEPT AS NOTED BELOW.

C. IF THE PASSENGER CANNOT PRODUCE IDENTIFICATION, OR IT CANNOT BE RECONCILED TO MATCH THE TICKET, THE PASSENGER BECOMES A "SELECTEE." CLEAR ALL OF THEIR LUGGAGE AS NOTED IN SECTION 6, BELOW.

6. CLEAR SELECTEE'S CHECKED AND CARRY-ON LUGGAGE, AND SUSPICIOUS ARTICLES DISCOVERED BY THE QUESTIONS ASKED;

A. IF THE SELECTEE IS ON A FLIGHT WITHIN THE 48 CONTINENTAL US STATES, OR TO MEXICO, OR TO CANADA, ITEMS CAN BE CLEARED BY EITHER OF THE FOLLOWING METHODS:

1. EMPTY THE LUGGAGE OR ITEM AND PHYSICALLY SEARCH ITS CONTENTS BY A QUALIFIED SCREENER, OR;

2. BAG-MATCH -- ENSURE THE BAG IS NOT TRANSPORTED ON THE AIRCRAFT IF THE PASSENGER DOES NOT BOARD.

B. IF THE SELECTEE IS ON AN INTERNATIONAL FLIGHT -- CHECKED LUGGAGE, CARRY-ON LUGGAGE, AND SUSPECT ITEMS CAN BE CLEARED ONLY BY THE FOLLOWING METHOD; EMPTY THE LUGGAGE OR ITEM AND PHYSICALLY SEARCH ITS CONTENTS BY QUALIFIED SCREENERS.
Some secret and cloak-and-dagger law that is. I even have a copy!

And to provide some backup to my previous post, here's another good regulation:

Quote:
91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
Ahh, I love catch-alls. If the Pilot in Command makes a decision regarding anything that pertains to his flight, it's law.

Quote:
you are still failing to explain how the 9/11 hijackers were stopped by showing id
I didn't even make an attempt to.

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#12739 - 03/08/05 01:49 PM Re: Millionaire Refuses to Submit to Fake Law - From 1st Class to Bus Pass
xacex Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/10/04
Posts: 81
Loc: Tallahassee, FL, USA
hm. well then, I retract what I said about misleading the customers in the case of the airlines.

What happens when you don't produce ID, get searched but aren't found with anything questionable? If you're let to go onto the flight, then I don't see any problem with this and I definitely don't see the need for the big deal being made. heh.

Like I said, it's their business, he's flying the plane, no matter who doesn't like it, I'd set a business up the exact same way.
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Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
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#12740 - 03/09/05 09:55 AM Re: Millionaire Refuses to Submit to Fake Law - From 1st Class to Bus Pass
pergesu Offline
UGN Elite Poster

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
First of all, people that work at the airport counters are idiots. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. So when they say, "It's a law" and are unable to produce it, don't be surprised. The agent who said that doesn't know that it's a law - he just knows that it's what his supervisor tells him to do.

You have to carry your ID all the time. If you get pulled over and don't have your license, you're not treated as someone who forgot his license, you're treated as an unlicensed driver. I don't necessarily think that's how it should be...but that was in effect long before 9/11.

Private companies can do whatever the hell they want, within regulations. Go into any store and see if they've got a policy somewhere saying, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason." They all do. If you don't like how it works, take your business elsewhere.

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#12741 - 03/14/05 11:52 PM Re: Millionaire Refuses to Submit to Fake Law - From 1st Class to Bus Pass
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Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 3255
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Quote:

"That's the problem. How it sounds," Gilmore said. He waved his hands like some Cassandra: "They have all these secret laws! The UFOs are coming! They have guards at every airport!" Yes, he said, there is a certain odd flavor to the notion that someone shouldn't have to show ID to board a plane, but with magnetometers at the gates, guards with security wands, fortified cockpit doors and sky marshals abounding, Gilmore is asking just how much citizens are giving up when they hand their driver's licenses to a third party, in this case an airline, where it is put into a database they cannot see, to meet a law that, as it turns out, they are not allowed to read.

Gilmore will show ID for an international flight because he doesn't expect to set the rules for other nations.

"I will show a passport to travel internationally. I'm not willing to show a passport to travel in my own country," Gilmore said. "I used to laugh at countries that had internal passports. And it's happened here and people don't even seem to know about it."
From the article ^


Quote:

Everything went pretty much according to expectations. That is to say, everything went to hell in a hurry.

As Gilmore tells it, he arrived at the gate two hours early, a paper ticket purchased through a travel agent in his hand. A Southwest agent asked for his ID. Gilmore, in turn, asked her if the ID requirement was an airline rule or a government rule. She didn't seem to know. Gilmore argued that if nobody could show him the law, he wasn't showing them an ID.

They reached a strange agreement for an argument about personal privacy: In lieu of showing ID, Gilmore would consent to an extra-close search, putting up with a pat-down in order to keep his personal identity to himself. He was wanded, patted down and sent along.

As Gilmore headed up the boarding ramp a security guard yanked him from line. According to court papers, a security agent named Reggie Wauls informed Gilmore he would not be flying that day.

"He said, 'I didn't let you fly because you said you had an ID and wouldn't show it,' " Gilmore said. "I asked, 'Does that mean if I'd left it at home I'd be on the plane?' He said, 'I didn't say that.' "

The Gilmore case is, if anything, about things unsaid. Gilmore -- and millions of other people -- are daily instructed to produce some manner of ID: a driver's license, a Social Security number, a phone number, date of birth. When Gilmore asked to see the rules explaining why his photo ID is necessary for airline security, his request was denied. The regulation under which the Transportation Safety Administration, an arm of the Department of Homeland Security, instructs the airlines to collect such identification is classified as "Sensitive Security Information."

When Congress passes a law, it is as often as not up to some agency to decide what that law means and how to enforce it. Usually, those regulations are available for people to examine, even challenge if they conflict with the Constitution.

This wasn't the case when Congress passed the Air Transportation Security Act of 1974. The Department of Transportation was instructed to hold close information that would "constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy" or "reveal trade secrets" or "be detrimental to the safety of persons traveling in air transportation."

The Federal Aviation Administration, then a branch of the transportation department, drew up regulations that established the category now known as Sensitive Security Information.

When the responsibility for air travel safety was transferred to the newly created Transportation Safety Administration, which was in turn made a branch of the new Department of Homeland Security, the oversight for Sensitive Security Information went with it. The language in the Homeland Security Act was broadened, subtly but unmistakably, where SSI was concerned.

It could not be divulged if it would "be detrimental to the security of transportation."

"By removing any reference to persons or passengers, Congress has significantly broadened the scope of SSI authority," wrote Todd B. Tatelman, an attorney for the Congressional Research Office. Tatelman was asked by Congress last year to look at the implications of Gilmore's case.

Tatelman's report found that the broadened language essentially put a cocoon of secrecy around 16 categories of information, such as security programs, security directives, security measures, security screening information "and a general category consisting of 'other information.' "

The government has been so unyielding on disclosure that men with the name David Nelson suddenly found themselves ejected from flights. Somewhere in the system, the name came up on the newly created "No Fly" list. Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., found himself in the same dilemma. When baggage screeners were caught pilfering, prosecutions were dropped because a trial would require a discussion of "Sensitive Security Information."

When John Gilmore demanded proof that the airport ID rule met Constitutional muster, the government at first declined to acknowledge it even existed.
Okay, first off, before you debate read the entire article.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by unreal:
Quote:
Originally posted by xacex:
Companies have the right to do whatever they please which includes making each customer show ID or not as long as they are a privately owned business. Which is perfectly fine, I'd rather not have the government have a hand in businesses anyway. But stating it's the law is a falacy and is misleading to their customers.
The airlines are private businesses, however they are regulated by the federal government (the FAA). They must abide by the regulations in 14 CFR Part 121, as well as many regulatory directives. One of which is Security Directive 96-05:

Quote:
1. IDENTIFY THE PASSENGER -

A. ALL PASSENGERS WHO APPEAR TO BE 18 YEARS OF AGE WILL PRESENT A GOVERNMENT ISSUED PICTURE ID, OR TWO OTHER FORMS OF ID, AT LEAST ONE OF WHICH MUST BE ISSUED BY A GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY.

B. THE AGENT MUST RECONCILE THE NAME ON THE ID AND THE NAME ON THE TICKET -- EXCEPT AS NOTED BELOW.

C. IF THE PASSENGER CANNOT PRODUCE IDENTIFICATION, OR IT CANNOT BE RECONCILED TO MATCH THE TICKET, THE PASSENGER BECOMES A "SELECTEE." CLEAR ALL OF THEIR LUGGAGE AS NOTED IN SECTION 6, BELOW.

6. CLEAR SELECTEE'S CHECKED AND CARRY-ON LUGGAGE, AND SUSPICIOUS ARTICLES DISCOVERED BY THE QUESTIONS ASKED;

A. IF THE SELECTEE IS ON A FLIGHT WITHIN THE 48 CONTINENTAL US STATES, OR TO MEXICO, OR TO CANADA, ITEMS CAN BE CLEARED BY EITHER OF THE FOLLOWING METHODS:

1. EMPTY THE LUGGAGE OR ITEM AND PHYSICALLY SEARCH ITS CONTENTS BY A QUALIFIED SCREENER, OR;

2. BAG-MATCH -- ENSURE THE BAG IS NOT TRANSPORTED ON THE AIRCRAFT IF THE PASSENGER DOES NOT BOARD.

B. IF THE SELECTEE IS ON AN INTERNATIONAL FLIGHT -- CHECKED LUGGAGE, CARRY-ON LUGGAGE, AND SUSPECT ITEMS CAN BE CLEARED ONLY BY THE FOLLOWING METHOD; EMPTY THE LUGGAGE OR ITEM AND PHYSICALLY SEARCH ITS CONTENTS BY QUALIFIED SCREENERS.
Some secret and cloak-and-dagger law that is. I even have a copy!

And to provide some backup to my previous post, here's another good regulation:

Quote:
91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
Ahh, I love catch-alls. If the Pilot in Command makes a decision regarding anything that pertains to his flight, it's law.

Quote:
you are still failing to explain how the 9/11 hijackers were stopped by showing id
I didn't even make an attempt to.
Unreal, I love you like a... Well I like you a lot. Truely. Do you really think you have a copy of this law? Could what you have maybe not be in effect after 9/11? In other words could the law this man is challenging superceed what you have? I mean the government denies it exists when firsts asked about it.

Quote:
When John Gilmore demanded proof that the airport ID rule met Constitutional muster, the government at first declined to acknowledge it even existed.

Ann Davis, a spokeswoman for TSA, tacitly acknowledged the strange rabbit hole into which Gilmore has fallen. The Department of Justice, in its first response to Gilmore's suit two years ago, declined to acknowledge whether such an instruction existed. Later, it admitted its existence. Then the government asked a judge to hold a hearing in secret and preclude Gilmore's lawyers from seeing the regulation they sought to challenge, the contents of which seem to be pretty widely known.
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