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#9972 - 04/07/02 05:30 AM learning to program what language first?
sprinter Offline
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Registered: 03/29/02
Posts: 42
so i want to learn to program what langauge first? i know some html and some g code and maybe some BASIC but whats an easy to learn useful programing language?

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#9973 - 04/07/02 05:55 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
Gremelin Offline

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Learn some C++ at least then you'd be able to program for both *nix and Windows. Or if you feel you're too lame to do that, learn some VB... But eventually you'll get into C++, heh..
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#9974 - 04/07/02 06:47 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
sprinter Offline
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Registered: 03/29/02
Posts: 42
so any web resources on C++? or is it best to buy a book or take a class? i got a friend whos father has been programming for a looong time(writes software for banks) if i get really stuck im sure i could get some pointers from him :).

< heads off to google to do a search >

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#9975 - 04/07/02 09:45 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
Gremelin Offline

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well a good start is online tutorials and free shells. You can start by just testing out c in basic linux scripts and ****... How i got started is that i helped a few friends program some linux backdoors and false daemons for warboxes and some exploits and ****...

((as many of you know I was one of the first to type up a laymens report on PDG_Cart, Cisco Routers, etc))

If you need any help feel free to ask and i'll help you out. As for shells, look for something that has Pico access, i can't ****ing stand VI..
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#9976 - 04/07/02 09:45 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
Gremelin Offline

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oh yeh, and for note, classes are well worth it, but you have to umm "aquire" some software :x
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#9977 - 04/07/02 01:58 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
sprinter Offline
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Registered: 03/29/02
Posts: 42
you dont like VI huh? eheh i can find software this is not a problem..

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#9978 - 04/07/02 03:07 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
SilentRage Offline
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The best way to answer your question on what language to start with first is with a bit of information. With that information, I'll tell you what to start with and why.

1) Are you a smart study (able to self-teach, good ability to grasp concepts)
2) Why and for what do you want to program
3) How important is easy and fast programming verses harder and slower programming.
4) Do you want to program for windows, linux, or cross-platform (like Java and Perl)?

I think with that I can answer your question intelligently rather than enforcing my personality and circumstance specific opinions on you.
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#9979 - 04/07/02 09:17 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
sprinter Offline
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Registered: 03/29/02
Posts: 42
silent rage-

1. yes very much so.
2. ive always been intriqued by programing and would like to fully understand it.
3.doesnt matter to me right now i have alot of time on my hands.
4.i mainly use windows so would prolly be a windows thing.


i looked at some c++ tutorial earlier today and with my past CNC programing experience it just clicked seems natural. now i didnt say i can go write a program but it makes good sense to me.

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#9980 - 04/07/02 11:10 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
SilentRage Offline
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Get Microsoft Visual C++ 6.0

Comparison between VB and VC++

1) Both are very popular and you'll have no problem with finding learning materials and example code.
2) VC++ is a bit harder to learn
3) VB programming is a bit faster
4) VC++ is more powerful and flexible and can have less overhead than VB
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#9981 - 04/08/02 06:38 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
sprinter Offline
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Registered: 03/29/02
Posts: 42
whats the diff between C++ and VC++ ? i looked for Microsoft VC++ and it was all menu driven it looked like. i was under the impression this would be more like just plain text? or is that where the visual? part comes in? anyway used to writing NC programs from scratch but those were just X and Y coordinates and g code. or canned cylces whatever you want to call it.

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#9982 - 04/08/02 01:16 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
SilentRage Offline
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huh, well, I chose VC++ cause you said "easy to learn" in your first post. But hey, if you don't like that gorge of a GUI VC++ has, then consider GIMP perhaps. I think that's the gcc equivilent for windows. I don't know if it has an IDE or not. LCC is good too (that's what I use), but it is only for C - not C++. You can also go to the Borland website and get there free Borland Command-Line Compiler, it is for C and C++ - absolutely no GUI, just compiler/linker type stuff.
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#9983 - 04/08/02 09:43 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
Scallion Offline
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Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 48
Loc: iraq
If I were you, I'd ask myself a question:

Do I want rapidly deployable applications with fewer options, or do I want in-depth applications with a multitude of options that I will spend more time on?

If you want rapid deployment, learn PHP and Perl. Both free, both SIMPLE to learn. Took me 30 minutes to get the basics of Perl down.

If you want in depth, take the route these guys suggest: C++. Go to your library, find the oldest, most beat up C or C++ book. Beat it up some more; make sure it looks old. Take it to the front desk and say that you think it's too old to be of any use anymore, and ask if you can have it or any other old 'puter books. This is what I do - I have 3 bookcases of books I didn't pay for at home.

Have fun!

Oh yeah - remember this word, "man", before you post anything to a message board it'll save you time.

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#9984 - 04/09/02 12:01 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
psychogen Offline
Member

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 257
Loc: UK
hmmm i suggest Dev-C++ its for windows its deved by a load of linux geeks and u can even have it look like its on linux - hehe Gnome look! well no thats not the fun part the good part its free and u can dl it from download.com allthough a sad part is that it does not include all header files with it!

but thise are easely aquired over the net!
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#9985 - 04/20/02 12:11 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
pergesu Offline
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Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
C and C++ are gonna be your best bet for learning to do systems and socket programming. Java is also good, because it's essentially as powerful as C++, and is extremely portable. It will run on almost any OS without any change in code. Some good Java tutorials can be found at http://rrfn.promodtecnologies.com/otherfiles.htm

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#9986 - 04/26/02 11:38 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
Moffesto Offline
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Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 730
Loc: Kuntucky
Hey scallion, where might i be able to get perl or PHP. What is PHP, i've never heard of it, lol... im new here i guess.
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#9987 - 05/02/02 10:32 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
blackh0le Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 11
Quote:
where might i be able to get perl or PHP.

i am not sure but perl is for programming in linux commands and shell.
http://www.activestate.com/ http://perl.com http://hackingtruths.box.sk/perl.htm http://perl.com/pub/q/documentation http://www.hotscripts.com/Perl/

Quote:

What is PHP, i've never heard of it, lol... im new here i guess.


here is how php.net describes php as:

"What is PHP?
PHP is a widely-used general-purpose scripting language that is especially suited for Web development and can be embedded into HTML. If you are new to PHP and want to get some idea of how it works, try the introductory tutorial. After that, check out the online manual, and the example archive sites and some of the other resources available in the links section."
http://www.php.net http://www.php.net/tut.php http://www.php.net/docs.php http://phpworld.com/ http://www.hotscripts.com/PHP/

i am kinda new to programming too. the only thing i know is html, css, java script, and basic.

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#9988 - 05/03/02 01:47 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
Le4rner Offline
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Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 562
Java Script and Basic if known in depth are not bad places to start at all. First off, Basic is in fact a full language. Do you know VB or Qbasic? Qbasic can be found on your windows install disks. just browse them. You can also find a compiler on line for qbasic.

As for java script. It is a decent place to start. It builds good habits, and can give you a general idea on how programing usallyt works. Once you learn one language, the rest are just different commands and different ways of doing the same.

For example, if then statments
do while loops
and on and one.
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#9989 - 05/03/02 02:44 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
sprinter Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/29/02
Posts: 42
i know some basic. i have programmed using g-code which is basically cnc machine stuff. it is mainly canned cylces and geometry but really basic stuff.

i had a vic 20 back in the day and played some with basic then but it didnt really set in i read the manuals and typed in some programs but didnt go too far with it.

thats about all my exposure has been to this stuff.

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#9990 - 05/06/02 11:44 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
madhatter Offline
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Registered: 05/06/02
Posts: 6
Loc: eastern canada
I'd have to say that a class is the best way to learn c++, I tried learning on my own.(hehe failed miserably) I picked up a little perl, html, basic on my own. But c++ and java are a little complicated cause they're object oriented. If you can catch on to that though you're all set. To answer your question, I'd start with C basics, then jump into C++.
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#9991 - 05/07/02 04:53 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
? Offline
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Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 135
C++ is really nothing special. it's not like C is a 85 chevy nova and C++ is brand-new ferrari. The thing about C++ and all OO-languages is that they were created to serve the requirements of huge applications and have 100s of thousands of lines of code. That's the main difference between c and C++. jus look at bugtraq an securityfocus and tell me how many exploits you see written in c++? not very many if any at all. unless you are planning on writing the next Quake engine or making the next microsoft office you don't really need C++ or any other OO-language. stick with C.
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#9992 - 05/07/02 01:54 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
SilentRage Offline
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Registered: 03/04/02
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heh, even in C you can write huge programs if you want. It'll just take a highly developed programming method which works quickly for you. Shoot, I've seen huge (even graphical) programs written in nothing but ASM even.
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#9993 - 05/09/02 04:09 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
? Offline
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Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 135
yeah, I mean if operating systems can be written in C then why bother with C++, how much more "POWER" can you get out of it?
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#9994 - 05/10/02 12:42 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
pergesu Offline
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Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
The vast majority of games, and nearly all high-performance 3D games are programmed in C with bits of assembly thrown in

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#9995 - 05/10/02 02:05 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
SilentRage Offline
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yah, in my personal unproffessional opinion, programming in C/ASM is ideal. C is high level enough to make things fast and convenient enough to make the big programs. Then you use ASM to optimize essential parts. IMHO pure ASM programming is not necessary since C compilers do a dmn fine job if you use a good one.
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#9996 - 12/31/02 08:58 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
UmOkDude Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 8
Loc: usa
Linux Backdoors? Trojans for Linux you mean?

Daemons? like MailerDaemon?

Sowwi me noob
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#9997 - 01/02/03 05:22 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
§intå× Offline


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Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 3255
Loc: Maryland
Quote:
Originally posted by Moffesto:
Hey scallion, where might i be able to get perl or PHP. What is PHP, i've never heard of it, lol... im new here i guess.
You are joking right? As much as we talk about it lately

http://www.php.net
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#9998 - 01/02/03 11:09 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
Gremelin Offline

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newb today 'eh?

http://www.php.net/ works, although most of the time if you're looking for a major resource, the address is http://[resource].org/.
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#9999 - 01/10/03 12:28 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
Ice Offline
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Registered: 11/29/02
Posts: 1146
Loc: Canada
hmm someone answer this = )
I know Qbasic Very well, Learned it 1 year in High School and Currently taking it agian but higher grade level of course
Anyways would Visual Basic be the Next step ???
Or dive into C/C++ ??
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#10000 - 01/10/03 01:10 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
BackSlash Offline
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Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 599
Loc: TN
you might consider visual basic as the next step, however, not visualbasic.net, there would be to many differences
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#10001 - 01/10/03 01:51 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
Ice Offline
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Registered: 11/29/02
Posts: 1146
Loc: Canada
so what Program Exactly should i learn in the Ladder ??
I know QBasic pretty good, I know html pretty good

Provide some sites 2 = )

Back what Visiaul Basic u talking about ??
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#10002 - 01/10/03 09:15 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
BackSlash Offline
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Registered: 03/16/02
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i'm saying that moving from qbasic to visual basic 6 or before would be easier than trying to go from qbasic to visualbasic.net
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#10003 - 01/10/03 11:45 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
pergesu Offline
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Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
Loc: Pimpin the Colorizzle
I think Java is definitely the language to learn. It's fairly simple to learn, it's powerful, doesn't allow common programming errors you may write in C/C++, secure, and portable. For tutorials, resources, and discussion check out my site. http://www.javaspot.net

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#10004 - 01/11/03 03:29 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
SilentRage Offline
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java is also slower than C/C++ and uses more resources and should be avoided if at all possible IMHO. Shoot I may even consider java slower than VB.
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#10005 - 01/11/03 09:17 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
pergesu Offline
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Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1136
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Are you kidding? Sure it's slower than C/C++, but not noticably unless you're writing apps that require ultra-high performance. With the resources available to computers today, the overhead is negligible. I'm not one for bloated code, but Java code gets compiled cleanly and runs on any OS. Sure, programs use more resources than C programs, but it's that way with any language other than assembly and there are enough available resources that it doesn't matter. As for speed and resource usage, it's good enough that amazon.com uses servlets as the backend. Google did a massive study on the different technologies, spending about 50k in determining what they should use. They ended up going with PHP with the IonCube Accellarator, because the servers they run are FreeBSD and threads support on FreeBSD isn't that great.

There's no way java is slower than VB. Profile equivalent programs and the java one will be a lot faster. The MFC overhead is just too great in VB, though it's still not noticeable to the average person.

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#10006 - 01/30/03 11:52 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
Ice Offline
UGN News Staff

Registered: 11/29/02
Posts: 1146
Loc: Canada
I think i am ganna start learning Visual Basic, The windows Version. It looks almost exactly the same as Qbasic but a little more complicated and a little more commands. What is VB actually used for mostley ?? I know alot of the Trojans out there are made in VB
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#10007 - 01/31/03 01:04 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
SilentRage Offline
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Well, I just did a speed test. This test did not involve the use of objects. All I did was loop from 0 to 10 million. Within the loop I incremented a long variable by one. Here's the results:

VB: 672 milliseconds
Java: 47 milliseconds
C: 16 milliseconds

This next test has to do with the fact java is forced to use objects, while VB and C may use the API. Again, we have a loop going from 0 to 10 million. However, this time within the loop, we have a single line where we store the system tick count into a long variable. (Java: System.currentTimeMillis)

VB: 1094 milliseconds
Java: 1313 milliseconds
C: 94 milliseconds

Conclusion. C kicks ass. Java as a language is faster than VB. VB's access to API's makes it capable of going faster than Java.

Also, in response to pergesu's popular argument concerning speed and system resources. I don't give a damn how fast you are. When it comes to intensive code, such as compression, encryption, sorting large lists, or anything that involves a heck of a lot of data, - the faster the better. The faster our computers get, the higher our demands become, so things are kept in balance.
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#10008 - 01/31/03 02:30 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
Kickfoot Offline
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Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 18
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#10009 - 02/01/03 08:52 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
Scalli0n Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 68
OK, Here's the DL on programming languages:

1. C++ is great - there's minor differences b/t ANSI C++ and VC (MS) C++, just the same as GNU (G++) has it's differences. It's a fast, good language that most exploits are written in - so you can do something other than print out exploits and pretend to read them.

2. Java is not slower than C++. The Virtual Machine that's installed on your system. On some systems, it's faster, on others, it's slower. And, it depends on what VM you install; embedded devices use Micro Runtime Edition or something like that. It's damn fast, but limited. J2RE is also PDQ. Writing your code tightly and efficiently is also a must. Java is good because it's 100% portable 99% of the time.

3. Perl/PHP - Not similiar at all, but often grouped together. Perl is a scripting/sysadmin language (IMO) which is unsuited for the internet. It's hideous to read too. PHP, on the other hand is secure, fast as hell, free, and interfaces well with common databases. Just one problem: bad coding habits are easy to pick up with this language. Watch out. (i.e. register_global, non-strict datatypes)

4. HTML/JavaScript/DHTML - These should be a whiz to learn after the above 3; you'll get the hang of it if you've been programming as long as I have.

Also, common languages (Ruby being determined as "common") always have tutorials on the web. Use google. PageRank actually works.

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#10010 - 02/01/03 09:20 AM Re: learning to program what language first?
Gremelin Offline

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Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 7192
Loc: Portland, OR; USA
YES, our bbs is not suited for the internet!!
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#10011 - 02/01/03 05:48 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
Scalli0n Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 68
In my opinion, no.

Perl was designed as a scripting language primarily - it was hacked and kludged to be used with the internet.

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#10012 - 02/02/03 02:16 PM Re: learning to program what language first?
Gremelin Offline

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Posts: 7192
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Perl was designed by some dumb fuck who needed to do his taxes lol...
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